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Re: Vintage 1909 Gravity Hot Water Heating System
@Steamhead “Most are ornate Rococos..”
The first one is a Standard Radiator Mfg Co out of Buffalo, NY and the other you mentioned (my dining room and favorite radiator) is Erie Radiator by the Jarecki Manufacturing Co out of Erie, PA.
The first one is a Standard Radiator Mfg Co out of Buffalo, NY and the other you mentioned (my dining room and favorite radiator) is Erie Radiator by the Jarecki Manufacturing Co out of Erie, PA.
Unfortunately no name on the gas burner. But that baby purrs along nicely.
Re: New York gas piping
My own experience with this is as follows:
Years ago, what was basically available to us was only Hercules white Teflon paste, gray Pipe Dope, and wick. We used gray pipe dope on nearly everything but if liquid were running through the pipe then we'd use wick first and brush dope or teflon over it.
The theory was always that if water reached the wick, it would expand and seal the threads, so it was a water application. Never on gas.
Years later, Teflon tape became very popular and it could be used on nearly every non-industrial-level application for gas, water, or anything else for that matter.
When I took my Master Plumber's exam we weren't allowed to use anything at all on the threads when making them up. I believe it was about 30 joints. The exam had us assembling the black pipe joints and fittings, filling the assembly with 100 PSI of air and submerging it in a big tub of water to see if it leaked (instant failure). We were told repeatedly by our course instructors when taking the exam prep class that all of the above products (teflon paste, tape, pipe dope) are nothing but lubricants that help you make the joint tighter. Only the black and terrible product Permatex was a sealant, which was obvious because it would dry and cure and be a nightmare to get apart later on.
So, I've gone my whole professional career not making a big deal about how to dress threads since it's absolutely the threads themselves that hold back the contents of the pipe.
I've read this thread and asked several Master Plumbers in my association about the claims presented and no one has heard anything about it.
Codes change suddenly and without much notification but my belief as of this moment is that pipe dope is still absolutely allowed on gas pipe in NYC.
Years ago, what was basically available to us was only Hercules white Teflon paste, gray Pipe Dope, and wick. We used gray pipe dope on nearly everything but if liquid were running through the pipe then we'd use wick first and brush dope or teflon over it.
The theory was always that if water reached the wick, it would expand and seal the threads, so it was a water application. Never on gas.
Years later, Teflon tape became very popular and it could be used on nearly every non-industrial-level application for gas, water, or anything else for that matter.
When I took my Master Plumber's exam we weren't allowed to use anything at all on the threads when making them up. I believe it was about 30 joints. The exam had us assembling the black pipe joints and fittings, filling the assembly with 100 PSI of air and submerging it in a big tub of water to see if it leaked (instant failure). We were told repeatedly by our course instructors when taking the exam prep class that all of the above products (teflon paste, tape, pipe dope) are nothing but lubricants that help you make the joint tighter. Only the black and terrible product Permatex was a sealant, which was obvious because it would dry and cure and be a nightmare to get apart later on.
So, I've gone my whole professional career not making a big deal about how to dress threads since it's absolutely the threads themselves that hold back the contents of the pipe.
I've read this thread and asked several Master Plumbers in my association about the claims presented and no one has heard anything about it.
Codes change suddenly and without much notification but my belief as of this moment is that pipe dope is still absolutely allowed on gas pipe in NYC.
JohnNY
7
Re: Do old radiators lose efficiency?
Good point @Mustangman, but the radiator is not the inefficient thing. The crud in the piping was the “inefficient thing”. So a replacement radiator with the cruddy pipe would still have a problem heating the room. Hence my Question “After you replace that expensive part, What will you check next?
However if that inspector IS correct, my information may be flawed. Since I am in my 60s that would by default make my repair ideas inefficient. But I still think my ideas would be better than @Jamie Hall 's advise, he is way older than me!
However if that inspector IS correct, my information may be flawed. Since I am in my 60s that would by default make my repair ideas inefficient. But I still think my ideas would be better than @Jamie Hall 's advise, he is way older than me!
Vintage 1909 Gravity Hot Water Heating System
Hello everyone,
I feel like I’m with good company here and wanted to share photos of my home’s original gravity hot water system which still works like a charm. My home is a Colonial Revival built in 1909 and located in Michigan, USA. I have a long time interest in HVAC. I always find the subject of heating and cooling a building fascinating.
I fell in love with this home on the walkthrough, especially when I saw the cast iron radiators and the old boiler. The inspection report came back decent and no issues found with the heating system. At the time I had no idea about “Gravity Systems” but watching Dan’s videos on the HH YouTube and reading books I found on archive.org (including Dan's), I became versed on the topic. I LOVE THIS SYSTEM and the simplicity of it all.
I am just amazed at the engineering the old timers put into designing and installing these systems. And here we are 115 years later and this system works without fail in my home. No pumps, pure physics. I have recently spent time repainting all the components of the system to give them a nice fresh update.
I have all my original cleaning tools for my boiler and I clean and maintain the heating plant myself. It helps I have the original sales brochure and care maintenance book issued by American Radiator Company. 😃 (I have uploaded both to archive.org)
Featured in my gravity system:
-1937 Ideal Boiler No.7 by American Radiator Company.
*Tested in at 74% efficient
* No CO leaks
* No rust on cast iron sections
* Excellent draft
* Clean blue flame when operating
* Flue temps 375°-400°
* No crazy expensive heating bills (home is well insulated, and programmable thermostat)
-Honeywell Heat Generator
*Works exactly how Dan explained in his video and the books out there. I’m amazed how even my home heats. Within 20 minutes of the boiler coming on I can touch every radiator and feel some warmth.
- 11 Cast Iron radiators and 1 baseboard
* Most are ornate Rococos by American Radiator Company
-Attic expansion tank
* This is also how the system gets filled with water *see pic*.
Asbestos abatement done on the pipes by previous owner. Wrapped in foam and duct tape.
Thank you all, the posts here are so helpful. I’ve never had to post because I could find my answers in search.
Enjoy the pics! Feel free to go over to my YouTube (@theadamsestate1909 for a boiler and radiator tour)
I feel like I’m with good company here and wanted to share photos of my home’s original gravity hot water system which still works like a charm. My home is a Colonial Revival built in 1909 and located in Michigan, USA. I have a long time interest in HVAC. I always find the subject of heating and cooling a building fascinating.
I fell in love with this home on the walkthrough, especially when I saw the cast iron radiators and the old boiler. The inspection report came back decent and no issues found with the heating system. At the time I had no idea about “Gravity Systems” but watching Dan’s videos on the HH YouTube and reading books I found on archive.org (including Dan's), I became versed on the topic. I LOVE THIS SYSTEM and the simplicity of it all.
I am just amazed at the engineering the old timers put into designing and installing these systems. And here we are 115 years later and this system works without fail in my home. No pumps, pure physics. I have recently spent time repainting all the components of the system to give them a nice fresh update.
I have all my original cleaning tools for my boiler and I clean and maintain the heating plant myself. It helps I have the original sales brochure and care maintenance book issued by American Radiator Company. 😃 (I have uploaded both to archive.org)
Featured in my gravity system:
-1937 Ideal Boiler No.7 by American Radiator Company.
*Tested in at 74% efficient
* No CO leaks
* No rust on cast iron sections
* Excellent draft
* Clean blue flame when operating
* Flue temps 375°-400°
* No crazy expensive heating bills (home is well insulated, and programmable thermostat)
-Honeywell Heat Generator
*Works exactly how Dan explained in his video and the books out there. I’m amazed how even my home heats. Within 20 minutes of the boiler coming on I can touch every radiator and feel some warmth.
- 11 Cast Iron radiators and 1 baseboard
* Most are ornate Rococos by American Radiator Company
-Attic expansion tank
* This is also how the system gets filled with water *see pic*.
Asbestos abatement done on the pipes by previous owner. Wrapped in foam and duct tape.
Thank you all, the posts here are so helpful. I’ve never had to post because I could find my answers in search.
Enjoy the pics! Feel free to go over to my YouTube (@theadamsestate1909 for a boiler and radiator tour)
Re: The "I don't care" guy.....
That looks like a typical restaurant restroom where the owner is to cheap to hire a professional and let the busboy take care of it...
Zman
5
Re: The "I don't care" guy.....
I think it more likely a plumber wasn't involved, and whoever tiled behind the sink removed it for tiling and reinstalled when they were done.Of course.
Plumbers never do bad work.
ChrisJ
6
Re: What time of year is acceptable to Shut Off steam heating system?
Um... really? The right time to shut off the heat -- whatever type of heat --is when it's warm enough to be comfortable without it.
Sorry if that sounds snarky, but... really...
Sorry if that sounds snarky, but... really...
Re: Do old radiators lose efficiency?
I just finished the overhaul of a 1910 Snowman steam boiler. The header pipes (four of about 5ft long and the horizontal header pipe coming into the boiler were almost completely blocked with sludge; magnetite. At the inlet to the boiler the 1-1/4 pipe ID was down to about the size of a pinky finger due to sludge. However, on the second floor the radiators were clean as a whistle! The gunk occurs with water standing in pipes within five feet leading to the boiler where the magnetite can settle out and accumulate. Upgraded to a new Pressuretrol,a new LWCO,
a new modern 175k BTU gas valve with slow-start ignition to eliminate the "boom" when the burner comes on, insulated pipes, and now the boiler runs at +-0.5PSI and maxes out at 0.7. Note the Pressuretrol is set at 2PSI and NEVER even kicks in. However, there is a plan to install a V
aporstat to reduce the boiler cycling. The boiler is so well matched to the house that an equilibrium is established. Before cleaning and replacing pipes, it was shutting down at 2PSI. To all those who say these old boilers are junk and we need a new sheet metal enclosed steam boiler; forget it! We saved about $8,000 by cleaning and overhauling the Arco Snowman. Note inside the valve of the steam radiator is a modulator. If this comes loose from deterioration, it will rotate and BLOCK steam flow! remove the valve stem and rotate it back into position; good as new. Also we added an alarm to the unused NO contacts of the LWCO so the alarm sounds when there is low water, an indicator for the thermostat on, an indicator for the 24VAC power on, and of course a burner power shut-off switch! ToDo; add more rockwool insulation! With this overhaul, the boiler will probably run another fifty years! And the whole system makes almost NO NOISE!
a new modern 175k BTU gas valve with slow-start ignition to eliminate the "boom" when the burner comes on, insulated pipes, and now the boiler runs at +-0.5PSI and maxes out at 0.7. Note the Pressuretrol is set at 2PSI and NEVER even kicks in. However, there is a plan to install a V
aporstat to reduce the boiler cycling. The boiler is so well matched to the house that an equilibrium is established. Before cleaning and replacing pipes, it was shutting down at 2PSI. To all those who say these old boilers are junk and we need a new sheet metal enclosed steam boiler; forget it! We saved about $8,000 by cleaning and overhauling the Arco Snowman. Note inside the valve of the steam radiator is a modulator. If this comes loose from deterioration, it will rotate and BLOCK steam flow! remove the valve stem and rotate it back into position; good as new. Also we added an alarm to the unused NO contacts of the LWCO so the alarm sounds when there is low water, an indicator for the thermostat on, an indicator for the 24VAC power on, and of course a burner power shut-off switch! ToDo; add more rockwool insulation! With this overhaul, the boiler will probably run another fifty years! And the whole system makes almost NO NOISE!
twbrkfd1
8
Re: YOU WANT TO HEAR A GOOD ONE?
I have two good stories.
#1
We had a good oil customer (commercial business) who had one of their employees that had a house with oil heat. He wanted to convert to gas so the company called and asked if we would go to his house, pump his 275 empty and take the oil down and put it in their tank. He was going to remove the tank and fill pipe the same day. Usually would decline this but is was summer, not much going on and they were a good customer
I got on the phone with the employee and told him I would swing by that evening to take a look.
the next day I got one of the drivers (smart) and a service tech (stupid) and gave the driver written instructions. Address,city town 275 gallon tank in basement, hatchway will be left open no one home etc etc
The address was Somers Road East Longmeadow, MASS. They went to Somers Road in Somers, CT (adjoining towns) and pumped out a 1000 gallon tank that was buried in the ground. And when THAT owner came home and surprised them they spilt oil on his driveway.
I had to do some fast talking but got out of it for a little money.
#2
This one is my screw up.
We were installing a couple of 45gph #4 oil burners in a high school. The oil piping all 2" black pipe was a mess and came in the building went up in the air and back down making a huge air trap.
This I had to fix on a Saturday as we couldn't shut the heat down on a school day.
So I went out Saturday morning and met the custodian he let me in and then without saying anything he took off and went home. This was before cell phones but I wished I had his # as I had only contacted him at the school.
I set up the threader and looked over the pipe and fittings I had because once I started sawzalling this stuff I had to get it back and running before I left.
No valves to drain the 12' 2" risers so i drilled a hole in the pipe and was catching all the oil in buckets. That went pretty well until
I stood up slipped on some oil on the floor that spilled from draining and fell down on top of the 6 or 8 buckets I had just drained. WHAT A MESS. I quickly exhausted the rags and speedy dry I had brought and had no spare clothes so now I am covered in smelly #4 oil. So I cleaned it up the best I could, I sure wasn't going to walk into a store for rags or more speedy dry although I thought about it.
After that fiasco I had to work all day piping the thing working in oil soaked clothes leaving oily foot prints on the boiler room floor that I had to clean up.
#1
We had a good oil customer (commercial business) who had one of their employees that had a house with oil heat. He wanted to convert to gas so the company called and asked if we would go to his house, pump his 275 empty and take the oil down and put it in their tank. He was going to remove the tank and fill pipe the same day. Usually would decline this but is was summer, not much going on and they were a good customer
I got on the phone with the employee and told him I would swing by that evening to take a look.
the next day I got one of the drivers (smart) and a service tech (stupid) and gave the driver written instructions. Address,city town 275 gallon tank in basement, hatchway will be left open no one home etc etc
The address was Somers Road East Longmeadow, MASS. They went to Somers Road in Somers, CT (adjoining towns) and pumped out a 1000 gallon tank that was buried in the ground. And when THAT owner came home and surprised them they spilt oil on his driveway.
I had to do some fast talking but got out of it for a little money.
#2
This one is my screw up.
We were installing a couple of 45gph #4 oil burners in a high school. The oil piping all 2" black pipe was a mess and came in the building went up in the air and back down making a huge air trap.
This I had to fix on a Saturday as we couldn't shut the heat down on a school day.
So I went out Saturday morning and met the custodian he let me in and then without saying anything he took off and went home. This was before cell phones but I wished I had his # as I had only contacted him at the school.
I set up the threader and looked over the pipe and fittings I had because once I started sawzalling this stuff I had to get it back and running before I left.
No valves to drain the 12' 2" risers so i drilled a hole in the pipe and was catching all the oil in buckets. That went pretty well until
I stood up slipped on some oil on the floor that spilled from draining and fell down on top of the 6 or 8 buckets I had just drained. WHAT A MESS. I quickly exhausted the rags and speedy dry I had brought and had no spare clothes so now I am covered in smelly #4 oil. So I cleaned it up the best I could, I sure wasn't going to walk into a store for rags or more speedy dry although I thought about it.
After that fiasco I had to work all day piping the thing working in oil soaked clothes leaving oily foot prints on the boiler room floor that I had to clean up.