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Time Meter for Riello F5 Burner

Can someone tell me the voltage ( AC/DC, etc) on the coil of the riello F5 solenoid oil valve when open. I want to connect a time meter to the coil to record burner run time when the burner is firing. Has anyone done this?and what Time Meter did you use. Thanks
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Comments

  • earl burnermannearl burnermann Posts: 126Member
    edited September 2013
    Just an idea...

    Download a PDF of the burner model you have. Looking at the schematic of the f3 model I see three wires connecting to the coil: 1,2 and 8. You might try running the proper guage wire to these three terminals, starting the burner and see which two wires give you voltage when the coil energizes. Note the voltage and terminals, shut down and remove tempo wires and then find a device that runs at that voltage that doesn't draw more amps that the burner is rated for.
    Post edited by earl burnermann on
    If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!
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  • BrooklynMikeBrooklynMike Posts: 2Member
    Time Meter for Riello F5 Burner

    Earl, Thanks for the reply. I went ahead and wired in some test leads between the control box and the coil. Before that, I buzzed out the coil with my old analog VOM and got the following reading in OHMS. 1-2 1500 ohms, 2-8 1 ohm, 1-8 1500 ohms. This agrees (given the accuracy of my old meter)with a Riello troubleshooting chart for the 40 F3/F5 burners. Next I attached the wires( 16 ga stranded and routed them out the air vent of the rear plate of the burner head and connected them to a terminal strip. I attached my meter and using the ac scales got the following voltage measurements when the burner actually fired; 1-2 50VAC steady with burner firing. 2-8 0 VDC, 1-8 a brief voltage pulse no more than 50 VAC when the burner first fired and then 0 VAC while the burner continue to fire. So, it looks like the voltage on 1-2 is what I want to run to a time meter to use to time oil usage. I want to remeasure the 50 VAC with a better meter. I don't know if this RMS or p to p or whatever. I did not try to measure any voltages to ground only between connections on the coil. I need to find a time meter thats inexpensive. I see ones that use 24 VAC and 120 VAC. Need to do more research. Last time I did this (1970's) I just connected an old mechanical clock radio to the AC into the burner and kept track of the time using 12 hours AM and 12 PM . IIn winter months when cold, the clock would be on the third cycle ( 24-36 hours) in a 7 day period when I recorded the data. That was with a simple no name oil burner in a Repco boiler.

    Any advise would be welcomed.
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  • earl burnermannearl burnermann Posts: 126Member
    options

    You could wire directly to the line voltage of the burner with a line voltage time keeper. The only problem would be the 20 second pre-purge. If you could also hook up a device that counted the cycles you could just do the math to eliminate the extra 20 seconds per cycle. Or you could just live with the 20 second difference. 1 hour is 3600 seconds, so it would take 1200 cycles to be off by an hour.
    If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!
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  • BarryNYBarryNY Posts: 12Member
    would this work - looking to do the same thing?

    Hello.

    Just purchased Buderus WS-4 and Riello F5 with Fuel Smart Hydrostat 3250plus.

    Surprised that with all this new equipment there is no run time information.



    Would a ENM T39 Dual Hour Meter/Counter Combo do the trick for me?



    Tracking run time is the main info and the counter will tell me how to account for the purge time...



    How do I install this equipment - at the Hydrostat or at the Riello connection?



    Here is the pdf info for the meter/counter: http://cfnewsads.thomasnet.com/pnn-pdf/20017618.pdf



    Any help appreciated. Thanks.
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 357Member ✭✭
    edited January 2014
    Logamatic

    That's just one of the neat features of the Logamatic, a time counter.



    Wire the counter off of B1 in the Hydrostat.



    http://www.buderus.us/files/201007151854470.6720618081_2107_Operating.pdf
    Post edited by R Mannino on
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  • BarryNYBarryNY Posts: 12Member
    if there are 2 wires coming out of the counter then...

    which of the wires goes to B1 and do any go to B2?

    thanks again.

    YES - the logamatic is the king of controls!!!
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 357Member ✭✭
    B2 is the Neutral

    B1 is the hot that fires the burner. Any neutral will work.





    5,995 hours on the timer in my Logamatic
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  • Patchogue PhilPatchogue Phil Posts: 219Member ✭✭
    add it up

    5,995 hours times (corrected) gph times price per gallon.
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 357Member ✭✭
    Properly Sized Boilers

    6000 x .55 x $3.00 / 6.2 years = $1597 per year.



    Just goes to show what a properly sized boiler running ODR can do.
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  • BarryNYBarryNY Posts: 12Member
    edited January 2014
    Of course it's all relative to...

    house size ;-)...



    and the .55 nozzle - at a 190 psi, it's more like .75gph.
    Post edited by BarryNY on
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 357Member ✭✭
    Firing Rate

    .55 IS the firing rate, I'm using a .4 nozzle.



    with a .5 nozzle the firing rate still runs around .6
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  • BarryNYBarryNY Posts: 12Member
    I'm curious about the benefits and negatives to running at reduced firing rate:

    Running the burner at lower input BTU than what the manufacturer recommends.



    For the WS-3 with NX the spec is a .75 gph firing rate for 105k btu input/hour. Am I correct to say that for #2 oil at 138,500 btu x .75 firing rate = 104k btu is how they arrive at this input?



    So you are putting in .55 gph x 138,500 = 76k btu input/hour or 30k btu less. Besides the reduction of .2 gph in fuel use - what other benefits are derived from making this change...longer more efficient run times? What are the potential negatives? How low can you go before there is a problem? Is this based on stack temperature - you can go as low as +/- 325 degrees stack and run the boiler safe and efficient?



    Thanks for the insight...
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 357Member ✭✭
    Uses Less Oil

    When you lower the stack temp you increase the efficiency of the appliance. Lowering the firing rate does also stretch out the run times.



    The downside is now the flame is too small and can get unstable at times. You can also end up with high rates of CO, sometimes not the best thing to do.



    I can get away with it because I have a very short chimney that is lined. Low stack temps can really cause a lot of condensation inside a chimney, for that matter so does short cycling.
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  • BarryNYBarryNY Posts: 12Member
    Thanks - Jim Davis disagrees with the underfiring concept:

    June 4, 2013: "Underfiring does nothing but increase fuel usage."



    However, you are underfiring your Buderus by 30k BTU but are getting great fuel savings - so that is in direct opposition to what he says...



    Anyway - as you state - you can get away with a reduced input BTU (smaller nozzle size) as long as you make sure:



    - the stack temp remains high enough to avoid condensation (in your own situation)

    - you maintain a good full flame (maybe need to adjust the nozzle type too as well as size)

    - watch CO levels (but a proper stack temp should negate that)

    This should all be done using a combustion analyzer...



    So a WS-4 with a factory .90 firing rate (.65 @ 190psi) can probably work just fine dropping down to a .77 firing rate (.55 @ 190 psi) yielding a savings of about 14%, especially if the boiler is slightly oversized to the heat loss right now (to account for a future home addition)...

    Thanks.
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 357Member ✭✭
    Fuel Usage

    June 4, 2013: "Underfiring does nothing but increase fuel usage."



    Maybe that has been his experience and is that conclusion with or without ODR?

    My findings in my situation suggest that blanket statement as incorrect.



    I do it because my boiler is oversized, but not by choice it's the smallest model they make.

    The heatloss for my home is under 40,000. I'm only driving 80 feet of baseboard.



    The combustion numbers are much better when you fire the appliance with the correct nozzle.
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  • earl burnermannearl burnermann Posts: 126Member
    Think I figured it out.

    So I ran low voltage wire to terminals 1 and 2 this afternoon, hooked my meter up the other ends, put the pc back on and started the burner. When the coil was energized I got 0 vac, but I did get 25 vdc.



    So I'm thinking I can power a RIB with this voltage. RIB coils will operate on 18 to 30 volts AC or DC. Then just use the NO connection to run a clock. Going to wait until the part house is open before I try it though. Too cold to go without heat tonight.
    If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!
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  • icesailoricesailor Posts: 7,265Member ✭✭✭✭
    Combustion Numbers:

    """ The combustion numbers are much better when you fire the appliance with the correct nozzle. """.



    That's always been my experience. The more I ever downsized a burner/boiler, the worse the combustion numbers got. How really bad the numbers were didn't show until I swapped from my wet kit to the digital analyzer.
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