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Very Nice

ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
Just wanted to share our friend JB's newest blog. Food for thought and the brain is always a sponge. Thanks for all you do JB for this great industry.



http://jbblog.flopro.taco-hvac.com/girls-talk/
"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
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«1

Comments

  • EastmanEastman Posts: 616Member ✭✭
    Which one...

    of us is he talking about in his prelude???
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    edited April 2013
    None of Us

    His point is that facts mean nothing, it's your interpretation of them. That's why he says take the info as you wish..



    I won't get into it any deeper, Let's say he finds it hard many cannot grasp the concept of gpm = btu/hr / (delta-t x 500). I'll leave it at that.
    Post edited by Chris on
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • heatpro02920heatpro02920 Posts: 991Member
    Chris, I see a lot of guys

    that choose to ignore the delta t issue, and not all old timers. I always say," trust in the math..."
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    Hydronics

    Is very forgiving and gives the stupid an out. There are plenty of nice solders's and wrench tuners but those plenty couldn't give you a hobo's tin can of how the system works. It's sad and some may not like it but it is the truth.



    I feel the industry continues to dumb down in the means of the all mighty dollar no matter how much the trade lobbying organizations want to perceive for efficiency. Those that know how to grab the dollar will continue to suppress those that need to earn the dollar.



    In the end it's about money for the corporation not the little guy.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • SWEISWEI Posts: 4,744Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    I look forward to the next couple of posts

    because there is more to it than this in a properly designed system.



    Always enjoy the musical accompaniment there...
    Post edited by SWEI on
    · ·
  • EastmanEastman Posts: 616Member ✭✭
    edited April 2013
    What do you mean?

    Do you have an example in mind?
    Post edited by Eastman on
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    Me Too

    He does a great job fitting the music to his thoughts.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • heatpro02920heatpro02920 Posts: 991Member
    Sure

    almost anyone can make the system "work". We have apair of local guys, unlicensed and uninsured, that work off of c-list {we call them the craigslist capers}. They do the same install all of the time, they install a williamson boilers and the same way every time... Circs on the return, purge stations above them with the water feed under them and the airscoop/exp tank on the supply... They use as much of the old system as possible and reuse every component from the old boiler they can, water feeds, circs, ect... I actually seen a boiler they installed that they left the 4 circs hanging where they were, and ran 1" pex to the bottom of the return instead of actually piping it over, the entire system was hanging from the ceiling...



    But they throw oil fired 3 sections with tanklesses in for under $2500 cash, I couldn't deliver the boiler into a basement for that!!!! And I would NEVER use old smoke pipe, old water feeds or exp tanks. I give a full NQA warranty for 24 months including the first cleaning and service for free with all of my oil installs, so chances are if I use the existing parts I will be back and changing them for free....



    But my point is, these guys probably don't even know what delta t is never mind how to use it to build an efficient properly functioning hydronic heating system... A while back when they started shipping boilers all wired up with the service switch already attached I knew it would be trouble, some say convenient but I think it just give the guys that would have no idea how to wire a control the ability to install a boiler...



    I'm sure others have seen pexed in supply and returns, extension cord wire used to power boilers, with 30 gauge smoke pipe and no draft control, never mind LWCO's, backflows, vac breakers, mixing valves, check valves, T&P's, ect...
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    edited April 2013
    Seems like he is laboring under some severe misapprehensions

    The pump is not varying its speed? How does he think that that important diagonal line that starts at 5 ft hd and goes over to 10 ft hd @ 9 gpm actually happens? Now, he chose examples that illustrate his point but these examples only make sense if we could not adjust the dP-V curve to suit the system. Which we can. His apparent inability to utilize the available control features to properly configure the circ for his system are not the circulator's fault.



    Secondly, dP-V is not by far the only control algorithm possible; more common is the dP-fixed. Let's say that he set the dial to 5 ft hd. What happens now? Or, for that matter, even with a dP-V curve, if he set it so that it intersects the system curve at 5' head and 10 gpm. In the case of fixed dP (5') the circulator will now push 10 gpm when all zones are open (curve A) and about 6.25 gpm when the largest zone closes (curve B). In the case of dP-V adjusted to the system (which will vary head between roughly 5.5' @ 12.5 gpm and 2.75' @ 0 gpm) the circulator will push 10 gpm when all zones are open (curve A) and about 5.5 gpm when the largest zone closes (curve B). Meanwhile, a fixed speed circulator with the same hydraulic performance would, as he says, be pushing 11.5 gpm (A) and 9 gpm (B). There's a world of difference between the performance of a properly configured product and one configured for the purposes of a punchline.



    All this would be fine if the guy were actually asking a question, but it seems like he's pointing a finger. When pointing that finger, it's important to have one's ducks in a row. He doesn't.
    Post edited by Gordan on
    · ·
  • SWEISWEI Posts: 4,744Member ✭✭✭✭
    examples in every post

    nice to see the broad appreciation of musical talent.
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    Gordan

    I think he made it clear in the 5th paragraph before he even went into his explanation that he was providing information and to use it as you wish.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • hot rodhot rod Posts: 3,742Member ✭✭✭
    Bring in a "Brain Box"

    I remember a dapper gentleman, and pump expert, from Canada explaining all these ∆P functions while standing in front of a working ∆P display, not all that long ago. He was knowledgable, funny, and did a great job explaining pumping concepts with ∆P circs, maybe he will pipe in :)



    Mark Hunt is another trainer that understands pumping, and explains P well.



    With several million ∆P circs in operation there must be something desireable about the concept :)



    I remember reading in 2009 the 1 millionth Alpha rolled off production, adding in the other 3 major pump manufacturers offering them, you can get a feeling for how many P circs are in operation.



    Promote the ∆T circ for what it does best, there are plenty of great applications for it, but not as a replacement for ∆P in all applications.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    Application

    I feel "P" pumps work best in constant circulation applications with TRV's/Non Electrics which most of the world and especially across the pond does.



    I feel "D" pumps work better here and in the majority of residential applications just for the mere fact of zoning and on/off systems. Commercial systems fall more in line with constant circulation and "P" pumps are best for these types of systems.



    Both have there place where they work best and just need to be used in the right application.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    edited April 2013
    I'm using it as I wish

    I am pointing out the limitations of his discussion and the misinformation in the information he's providing. I definitely do not wish to accept it uncritically. I'll leave that to others.



    He is NOT merely providing information. It is quite clear that he has an agenda. What he is doing is analogous to someone intentionally oversizing a mod con so that minimum modulation is greater than the design heat load, and then saying "well, look, wouldn't you expect a modulating boiler to, you know, modulate?" Only it's even worse, because there's no red dial to turn down the min output on a mod con, and there IS one on the circulator that he's providing "information" on.



    EDIT: Here, let me provide a more to-the-point analogy. Let's say that I use a Bumble Bee as my system circulator, set it to 5 F delta T, and put it in a fixed temperature, part-time circulation system designed around a 20 F delta T at 10 gpm and 7' of head. Not an unusual system. The Bumble Bee will never be able to reach that 5 F delta T so it will always operate at full speed until the call for heat is satisfied. Geez, wouldn't I expect my variable speed pump to, you know, vary its speed?



    But why would I intentionally misconfigure the Bumble Bee? Yeah, my point exactly. 
    Post edited by Gordan on
    · ·
  • hot rodhot rod Posts: 3,742Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    I respect the tenacity

    in which John is pursuing this pump logic discussion. His finger tips must be sore :)



    But it "feels" like he is trying to offer the delta t as a replacement, possibly an improvement to ∆P logic for most systems?



    Why not just get to work on offering a mini Viridian? Isn't that promoted as a ∆P pump solution? The market has embraced and learned the advantages to P, give 'em what the want.



    As Sheryl Crow sings, "It's not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you've got" something like that
    Post edited by hot rod on
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    · ·
  • EastmanEastman Posts: 616Member ✭✭
    I'm confused...

    I thought the Wilo ECO was an adjustable constant dP pump, but the documentation seems to only describe dP-V.  What modes are supported?
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    That's All I Found Too

    Is this what you were looking for Eastman?
    pdf
    pdf
    Wilo Eco Snapshot.pdf
    0B
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • EastmanEastman Posts: 616Member ✭✭
    yeah

    It does proportional pressure but not constant pressure?
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    The Eco is only dP-v

    The Alpha is only dP-constant. Larger Stratos circs (among others) support both. The blog author was using the Eco in the context of dP circs in general.
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    Of Course it would

    It's flow rate @7' of head is only 8gpm. You said you needed 100,000 btu/hr so of course it can't give you a 5 degree delta. Would you settle for a 25 and high speed? What if that zone was the one with your largest head but only required 2gpm?



    It does have to overcome the head loss and if I follow the Bee curve then it would be pushing or trying to push 5gpm but it would have varied it's speed. Now I'm basing that off the using the 4 fixed speed flow rates in the pump curve chart so I would assume it went from riding the speed 4 to now riding the speed 3. What the speed difference is I don't know but the pump is varying its speed. We went from using 42 Watts down to 32 Watts.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    So If 4' Is Min

    Then the pumps curve would be 8' Max, 4' Shut-Off. So if I draw the line from 4 to 8 the pump would still be moving exactly what it did at 5 and 10 under the numbers from his blog. The adjustment didn't do anything for me or am I reading this wrong..
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • EastmanEastman Posts: 616Member ✭✭
    look at the dial

    Why are there two ranges from 4 to 16 feet of head?
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    Apparently...

    ...that dial is there so you can turn it up too high and then complain that the circ is operating at full speed and you're overpumping your system. :-)

    Chris, I updated my original response to this thread with what would happen to the circulator's duty point if it had been properly set up for this system. I hope that answers it.
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    Chris

    My point is contained in the last sentence. Why would you intentionally misconfigure a product just so you can state that it doesn't perform?



    Yet that, in my view, is what the blog's author did.
    · ·
  • SWEISWEI Posts: 4,744Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    Deltas P

    The Stratos does offer multiple modes, but the IOM does not provide much guidance.



    For ∆P-V they say:



    Heating-/ventilation- and air conditioning systems with a system friction loss (heating radiator + thermostatic valve) under 25% of the total resistance



    1. Two-pipe systems with thermostatic/ zone valves

    • Flow head > 13.1 ft (high head systems)

    • Very long distribution lines

    • Heavily throttled branch shut-off valves

    • Branch differential pressure regulator

    • High pressure losses in those system parts through which the total volume flows (boilers/ refrigerating machines, poss.  heat exchangers, distribution line)



    2. Primary circuits with high pressure losses





    For ∆P-C they say:



    Heating-/ventilation- and air conditioning systems with a system friction loss in the generator/distributor circuit under 25% of the resistance in the transfer part (heating radiator + thermostatic valve)



    1. Two-pipe systems with thermostatic/ zone valves and high consumer authority

    • Flow head under 6.6 ft (low head systems)

    • Converted gravity systems

    • Retrofitting to large temperature spread (e.g. long-distance energy)

    • Low pressure losses in the system parts through which the total volume flows (boilers/refrigerating machines, poss. heat exchangers, distribution line)



    2. Primary circuits with low pressure losses



    3. Underfloor heating systems with thermostatic or zone valves



    4. Single-pipe systems with thermostatic or branch shut-off valves





    For ∆P-T they say:



    Heating Systems



    1. Two-pipe systems

    • Pump installed in the supply pipe.

    • Flow temperature controlled by atmospheric conditions. With increasing flow temperature the flow rate will be increased.



    2. Single-pipesystems

    • Pump installed in the return pipe.

    • Constant flow temperature. With increased return temperature the flow rate will be lowered.



    3. Primary circuits with condensing boiler

    • Pump installed in the return pipe. With increased return temperature the flow rate will be lowered.
    Post edited by SWEI on
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    But If I'm Reading the Manual Correct

    That setting is for the shut-off head. Manual says the shut-off head is 1/2 of the max head. So if 4 is shut-off then 8 is max and that would be my new duty curve right or am I missing something?
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    4' min is for H

    1/2 H is then 2' head. That's the shut-off head. For the circ to operate the way you describe it would have to be set for 8'. By default, it is set to 10'.
    · ·
  • EastmanEastman Posts: 616Member ✭✭
    edited April 2013
    I think it's like this....

    Look at the docs for the B&G ecocirc.  Look at the Wilo ECO Hmin/H/Hmax curve slopes.



    I think it is like this....



    ...so in other words, he couldn't have picked a worse example.
    jpg
    jpg
    wilo eco.jpg
    0B
    Post edited by Eastman on
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    You're right

    Looks like shutoff head is not really H/2 but more like (H + Hmin)/2. So, rather than split the difference between H and 0, split the difference between H and Hmin. What this would mean is that at H=5 (which would be a good setting for this system) you'd basically have a near constant dP curve.
    · ·
  • EastmanEastman Posts: 616Member ✭✭
    This is very...

    embarrassing for Taco.  The manual is pretty much FUBAR though, so I'll cut John Barba some slack.
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    I'm not inclined to cut slack

    There are other products with clearer manuals out there. Also, as an expert, or at least a person with considerable expertise available to him at will, he should be far less dependent upon these manuals to figure out how these devices should be set. As a person of authority in this space he has a responsibility to the industry to present accurate information. I'd be far more inclined to cut slack if the tone of his article did not strike me as pretty condescending to the unwashed masses who are honestly trying to make sense of this technology (and apparently having more success than he, the expert.)
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    edited April 2013
    Let's Not Get Too Carried Away

    It was the first in a series of blog posts on Delta-P. There's more coming. He picked the factory setting and put it in an out of the box installation like we all know plenty installers do.



    I wouldn't pass judgement until the next blog comes out next week..If you read his blogs every week they all start with the bad and lead to the fix and proper set up. You have to admit the majority of installers don't set them up properly. Let's face it have to have the heat loss for starters. Then calculate system and/or zone head. How many guys are really doing that?



    These are the manuals every installer has to use in the field so why should he not use the same information that they guy in the field has to use.
    Post edited by Chris on
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • EastmanEastman Posts: 616Member ✭✭
    it's a perfect match!

    I hope for Barbra's sake I'm wrong, but right now I can't stop laughing.
    · ·
  • Steve Thompson (Taco)Steve Thompson (Taco) Posts: 79Member ✭✭
    One man's opinion

    Sorry, I can't resist weighing in on this...



    I was the product development guy that developed the Stratos and ECO back about 6 years ago (not a huge deal, mainly North Americanised what was already available in Europe).  However, what was a big deal was preparing you guys and develop the first North American ECM training program (installation, operation, application, Brain Box etc).  And yes, these were the first ECM circs brought into North America - so you can blame me :-).  Based on my experiences AND working for companies that believe in delta P and/or delta T, I have a couple of observations/comments/questions for you folks:



    1)  Siggy has been after someone to develop a circ that can do both delta P and delta T.  Assuming both will "more or less" provide flow regulation (let's leave it at that), my question is how would you guys decide which control to use (other than boiler protection, injection and snow melt that are all delta T only) - not an easy question to answer is it...



    2)  I apologise if this sounds biased but without knowing the system curve and where it intersects with the pump curve, how do you know what speed to set a 3 speed circ at?  Or what is the best delta PV setting?  It's the "right" setting once a sensible delta T is reached - so we are back to delta T.



    3)  Two European manufacturers at ISH will be bringing over new ECM technologies - one includes delta T and the other includes set-point temperature control (yep, they are starting to do this overseas).  In conversation with all 3, they all admit there is a place for delta T and are excited about this new (for them) control for on-off zone control (I never thought I would here that from those folks).  So, you better get used to seeing more delta T circs in North America - like it or not.



    4) What the statement about delta PC or delta PV is saying, basically PC is for low friction loss systems.  PV is for higher friction loss systems (steeper system curves), or systems that the piping component of the friction loss is higher than the heat emitters.  One part of the O/M I had a hard time translating - sorry.



    5)  Please, repeat PLEASE don't bash a guy that has a HUGE amount of passion for this industry and remember we are all entitled to our opinions.  John Barba has devoted his career to helping us all and really knows his stuff.  Do I agree with John all the time?  Nope (we do have interesting differences of opinion and yep, sometimes he doesn't agree with me - go figure).  Did I proof his post prior to publishing - yep.  And agree with what he says.  BTW, the bit about the circ not changing it's speed is referring to what happens if the delta P dial is not set high enough (needs to be re-set for systems of high flow and low heads), and the pump runs at max speed (I even asked about that).



    6)  Finally (whew), let us all remember our biggest competitors are the scorched air guys.  Let us all promote the hell out of hydronics, provide superior comfort and make dough!
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    Nobody is bashing the man, Steve

    I'm bashing the article. I see no evidence on this thread of bashing dT or setpoint circulator control, Taco, or its products. Seems to me like we all agree that there's an application for dT. (As an aside, as far as the setpoint mode is concerned, you could make it far more useful by using the other sensor as an outdoor sensor and providing a way to set a reset curve, which seems like it would be a software-only upgrade. But that's just my opinion.) But the article would certainly appear to bash dP circulator control, and do it in a fairly unfair manner. Anyone with a concern for the health of the industry and the passion for technology that John has surely aspires to a higher standard of fairness and accuracy.



    There's a difference between stating that there's a target delta T for design conditions that's a good compromise between cost, energy efficiency, and performance, and that there shall be a fixed delta T for all conditions. I, for one, would like to see him discuss more broadly the implications of a fixed delta T operation compared to floating. He hinted at it in this article (suggesting that a dP circulator would run at the same speeds during shoulder seasons as it would during peak season) but a balanced and in-depth analysis of the two approaches (maintain flow but reduce supply temp further [floating dT] vs. reduce flow but reduce supply temp less [fixed dT]), both ways to attain the same AWT and therefore the same heat output, is what it's really called for and what has driven a lot of the discussions here. He may find it necessary to tweak his format a bit.
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    Not impressed...

    ...with his choice to stick to his guns on analyzing what a misconfigured competitor's product does before he ever gets into what it will do if (presumably) correctly configured, and use the out-of-the-box clause as a cover.



    Here's a realization: out-of-the-box, no circulator does anything useful except maybe act as a paper weight. You still have to, ahem, install it. Plugging it in is good, too. I'm surprised that this series of articles takes such a critical thing for granted...
    · ·
  • hot rodhot rod Posts: 3,742Member ✭✭✭
    it's not about the messenger

    it's the message, Steve. If you put a product or a concept out there and ask the customers for comments.... especially in our industry, you should expect some strong opinion and reaction. You're not selling pumps to nuns :)



    If the blogs and posts were put out there anonymously, the reaction would be the same, you indicated it is a peer reviewed.



    Humor, and edgy are great and well taken in an "in person" presentation, in print, not so easy to pull off, in my opinion.



    I'm going to say the entire industry appreciates John's energy, pumping and other. If we didn't we would not be part of this long and ongoing discussion. I'll bet John has a very tough layer to handle the hard questions, as well as the boatloads of praise he rightfully receives.



    Discussion is a lot different in these microprocessed days. The comments go around the world in seconds and they are out there for an eternity.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    · ·
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    edited April 2013
    Maybe That's The Point

    If you install this circ out of the box at a factory setting this is what happens. It is true isn't it? You cannot sit there and tell me it doesn't happen every day in the real world. I'll wait to pass on opinion as to the blog once the entire subject is covered.



    There are many out there that need to be told how it works out of the box and then directed as to why that factory setting needs to be changed. Not all in the trade understand the entire concept of how the pump operates as you do.



    I do not think nor feel he is bashing Delta-P but rather showing how the pump operates. Maybe he should have released the entire subject in one blog post to quell the thought that he was attacking Delta-P. Blog posts are meant to be short to keep the readers attention. They are not meant to be long and drawn out so I understand why he is releasing it in smaller chunks. If you read his blogs often as I do, he does it with all his subject matters.



    In the end Delta-P knows nothing about the heat loss of the space or structure at given points in time, it only knows, pressure drop and the needed flow for that pressure drop. In my opinion that's why it works great with TRV's in constant circulation systems.
    Post edited by Chris on
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    · ·
  • GordanGordan Posts: 885Member ✭✭
    Okay, then

    What happens to the Bumble Bee if you just put it in out of the box?



    Or are you suggesting that figuring out where to place the two temperature sensors and how to plug them in is simpler than twiddling a dial? Yet, in the blog posts about dT, I don't see any analysis of what will happen if you just install this excellent product in an out-of-the box configuration - sensors detached - without bothering to read and understand the install instructions. Shouldn't he be more concerned with the proper installation of his own product than the competitor's? Why harp on this when a simple paragraph would do? Here's the suggested wording of that paragraph: "As with any control strategy, the benefits of pressure differential-based variable speed circulation will only be realized if the appropriate curve is selected. If set too high for the system, the variable speed circulator may constantly operate at full speed and overpumping may result, as illustrated in Figure X." A good location for this paragraph would be at the end of an article that honestly describes dP operation when parameters are correctly set.



    We won't even mention the Alpha, a dP circulator that comes with the factory AutoAdapt mode selected.



    It is the author's prerogative to write anything he likes any way he likes. All things considered, however, I find it impossible NOT to gain the impression that the way he chose to write this pooh-poohs a competing technology unfairly.
    · ·
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