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Energy Kinetics Prices

jimjim Posts: 42Member
You seem to have a lot of knowledge about something you really know nothing about. One of the factors that makes larger mass boilers comparitively inefficient is the amount of mass involved. If a boiler can heat quickly enough to start delivering heat 90 seconds after a thermostat call why maintain a buffer tank?

The only time a buffer tank is recommended is for a radiant installation, where using a buffer tank as the heat source instead of maintaining temperature in the boiler makes more sense and is more efficient.

Even a properly sized boiler is oversized on all but a few days of the year. In the shoulder seasons, as you have called them, the oversize factor tends to make boilers even less efficient. However, if most of the heat that has been generated is distributed to the heat or hot water when demand is satisfied, the effects of oversizing are nil.

As far as the domestic hot water, PHE's are extremely efficient and very fast. In the small percentage of installations where the water is hard enough to cause fouling, treat the water with a scale preventive or install the PHE as a heating zone and there is no issue. The system is not designed to make instantaneous DHW for the fixtures, it replenishes the hot water being drawn from the storage tank. With a properly sized tank, running out of hot water or having to wait for it to be made just doesn't happen.
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Comments

  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 686Member
    EK-2 Prices

    A client insists that we price out an Energy Kenetics EK-2 steel boiler for his home.

    Energy Kenetics woun't disclose their "factory direct" price to us unless we complete their one day training seminar in Jersey.

    In the meantime, can anyone here perhaps EMAIL us (Eaglo@aol.com) with what we'd expect to pay for an EK-2 boiler with their controls and heat exchanger but without their storage tank?

    Thank you.

    Geez...

    Long Beach Ed
    · ·
  • Robert O'BrienRobert O'Brien Posts: 2,342Member ✭✭✭
    EK

    does a fantastic job of protecting the integrity of their product by selling direct to contractors who have training in their products,rather than wholesalers who will sell to anyone who has a credit card. EK should be commended for this, not berated. Also their tech support is 2nd to none.And they're nice guys too!

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    · ·
  • LeoLeo Posts: 767Member ✭✭
    The company I work for

    The company I work for had a similar experience with a customer. EK had us start an account with them that was it. Now the local rep knows my boss and our company that may have helped. Try meeting the local rep that may help you. You do need the Manual for proper settings, like anything different it has some quirks but it is still running with an oil burner. I like them.

    Leo
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  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 2Member


    Never looked at it that way, Robert.

    As annoying as the "$75 marketing seminar" may be, it does keep the product and prices out of the general public's hands which does protect us somewhat.

    Just annoying to a guy who's trying to bid a job and is honest enough to go research instead of just discouraging the homeowner.

    Long Beach Ed
    · ·
  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 2Member


    Figure on your cost of about $3200. Just plain silly considering it's 160 lbs of welded steel and that none of it goes to a dealer or jobber.

    If this customer insists, send him elsewhere. Not worth the bother.
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  • GWGW Posts: 1,679Member ✭✭✭
    a pro

    you are a true gentleman. If I got roadblocked like that I would not have done what you are doing. My hat is off.

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    Gary Wilson

    Wilson Services, Inc

    Northampton, MA
    · ·
  • Al GregoryAl Gregory Posts: 260Member


    Are you serious? That is the contractors price?
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  • Howard EmersonHoward Emerson Posts: 111Member


    Kenny,
    Why is it just plain silly that it may have a contractor cost of $3200?

    Why should any of it go to a dealer or a jobber?

    Can a tech, even one like you, figure out how to install it with a helper in a day and make yourself a good living and end up having your customers save money on oil?

    Is that within your realm, Kenny?

    Regards,
    Howard (an EK-1 owner)

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  • Boiler, circulator, hot water storage tank, plate exchanger, near boiler "pumping away piping already fitted, copper zone headers, 3 zone valves, pressure reducing valve, backflow preventer, bronze hot water circulator, burner, 10 micron oil filter, vacum guage, flexible oil line, and misc fittings.

    Thata a hellof a lot. try pricing out all that stuff individually and you'll be right around the EK price.

    The only thing I need to provide is an expansion tank, oil line, electrical, fluepipe, and my copper zone connections.

    Pretty sweet deal if you ask me. Makes pricing a job, AND the prep work easy. Im not wasting a day at the supply house with a huge list. The boiler is shipped with just about everything I need for the job

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
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  • KenKen Posts: 1,320Member
    Interesting...

    Especially in light of the major weakness of all EK S-2000's being the FP HX (leak city!) and if you need two or four zones...

    The price is absurd and lack of parts availability from wholesalers, an "angle" fraught with negatives.

    The only thing "special" about the EK is the marketing scheme.
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  • Robert O'BrienRobert O'Brien Posts: 2,342Member ✭✭✭
    Ken

    You bash the Euro's,then bash EK which is made in USA.What's left?Why not give a positive? Tell us what you like and why? I like any quality made and supported product regardless of where it's manufactured.Didn't the presence of the Euro's force the USA mfg's to step up their game? At least give them credit for that

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  • Disclosing a price is not the same as selling the boiler. Couldn't they let the guy figure his estimation costs and simply refuse to sell the boiler until he finishes the seminar?
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  • Howard EmersonHoward Emerson Posts: 111Member


    Rob,
    When you figure out the cost of a job, does the labor figure into the cost?

    If he doesn't take the seminar and find out all the stuff he WON'T HAVE TO DO with an EK boiler, how will he be able to price it correctly...?

    Or maybe he can just figure his normal boiler installation labor and pocket the labor savings instead of passing it on to the customer.

    HE
    · ·


  • Gee, I don't know, maybe a BROCHURE? ;-)
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  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 686Member
    Sounds a little silly to me...

    All we wanted was a price on a piece of equipment.

    Even though we don't like screwing our supplier out of a sale, if we were given the price and a somewhat technical brochure we could quote the job. We're licensed engineers and master plumbers. With that information in hand we could probably figure out for ourselves simply how great the EK heating marvel is.

    Better yet, even if we weren't sold on it or didn't like it, we could price the job for the customer who wanted the thing. Which we cannot now do.

    Since the customer is already sold on our firm, EK is losing the job as we cannot supply a price. Looks like this one is going to get three of those neat fully condensing stainless Peerless wonders with the upside-down burners.

    Long Beach Ed
    · ·
  • jimjim Posts: 42Member
    Ek pricing

    Even if you had a firm price, which you can't get without being set up as a dealer, you couldn't buy one without being setup as a dealer.
    · ·
  • jimjim Posts: 42Member
    If you need

    2 or 4 zones, you plumb them and wire them. What's the issue?

    The PHE is not a weak point by any means. However, it is up to the installer to determine local water quality, same as if you install a tankless coil. If the water is hard do something about it beside blame the equipment. Leaks? Seldom. PHE's are used residentially and commercially for heating, cooling, chemical processing, etc.

    The only parts not available from a wholesaler are the system manager and the digital temperature sensor, period. Misinformation such as this is one of the reasons the company wants all dealers to take part in a service seminar.
    · ·
  • KenKen Posts: 1,320Member
    L.B.Ed,

    You nailed it. Spot on.

    The "homeowner" who has all the answers, and no prices has an "interest" that suggests he is no "meer homeowner".

    You don't suppose he works, or a close relative/friend works with or at EK, now do you?(;-o)
    · ·
  • KenKen Posts: 1,320Member
    I do not

    bash the euro boilers. I own one! I bash their insipid marketing and false claims of superior engineering, etc. The only thing superior about the euro or EK boiler is the pricing. In EK's case, selling direct cuts out wholesale margins, which are nominal anyhow on iron (steel). And will make parts impossible to get from anyone but them. I am not a big fan of vertical distribution schemes. Never was; which is why I would also rag out Lennox. They even have territorial boundries! Talk about restraint of trade!

    If EK wishes to go that route, let 'em. We do not have to follow however. I still have a bad taste from EK from years ago.

    If you're going to put words in my mouth, at least make some attempt at being accurate.
    · ·
  • tomtom Posts: 269Member


    Ken,

    Why is it you hate marketing so much. Every good company in the world markets if they didnt they wouldnt sell anything ( if I hear the new John mellancamp song for Chevy one more time Im gonna puke )

    Do you like anything, or are you as misserable as you seem?
    · ·
  • tomtom Posts: 269Member


    And if it wasnt for those evil Japanese for making and marketing their cars better , the big 3 would still be making Pintos and Kcars
    · ·
  • Patchogue PhilPatchogue Phil Posts: 121Member
    Pintos and KCars

    Pintos and KCars were the lame attempts at being competitive with those evil Japanese for making and marketing their cars better.
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  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 686Member
    It's Unfortunate

    Too bad I can't work with this company. Sure, I'll take their $75 marketing course, but the Peerless's will be installed long before the course is available.

    I'll sell anything that a customer demands, as long as I outline my responsibilities in the contract and the thing meets codes.

    Sort of like my policy with my teenage daughter. I don't give advice unless it's asked for unless, of course if not giving it boarders on criminal.

    Long Beach Ed
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  • KenKen Posts: 1,320Member
    If you need to ask...

    Why I, or anyone else for that matter, "hates" marketing so much, perhaps you should stop and think a minute.

    We are assualted with phone calls, TV ad time, our mail boxes are jammed with junk mail, people in your face to sell something, Billboards accross America, radio blitzes, high pressure, non-stop invasions. We see, read and hear it so often, we become desensitized.

    I think it's out of hand. Absurdly so.

    You don't mind? Good for you. Don't ever change. If you love the tedium, the boredom and the lies, that's okay - for you. Just don't jam it down my throat!

    · ·
  • ScottScott Posts: 69Member
    Homeowner

    Ken, if you are refering to Mr. Emerson, he actually spent a lot of time researching his options. He had postings on OTT and I believe here as well. His system was installed by Techheat. He is simply a knowlegable homeowner who is sharing his experience.

    As I said he did his homework! He is not saying anything other than what he found during his research, and from his personal experience. I really don't think he is like some of the HO I have seen who are asking questions one day, and trying to pass themselves off as a pro the next. I do know that some of the contracters he talked to, put down the system 2000 mainly because they did not understand them.

    I myself have not installed any. I am a dealer, and have ordered parts for a few I have in the field. Dealers get a discount. If your not a dealer, you can still buy parts, but you pay a higher cost which you have to pass on to the customer. Very simple. They are a great company to deal with, and the tech. support is second to none!

    I just wanted to point out what I knew about this HO, as I have followed his threads on OTT. Assuming you haven't, I know where you're coming from!

    Scott
    · ·
  • Ken FieldKen Field Posts: 127Member
    Theres a shoe for every foot

    I get a real kick out of the negative things people say about Energy Kinetics and their products. Especially the people who have possibly encountered one on a service call and not even taken the time to figure out what is going on with the operation. How can they be adjusted, you can't even see the fire (that has always been one of my favorites).
    I read all the trade magazines and attend at least two trade shows a year and have yet to see an oil system that has half the innovative features that are standard on the System 2000. I find it amazing what contractors will sell to get a jacket or a pair of boots. As far as I'm concerned when you see the performance of your cast iron boiler with a domestic coil, you will know what to do with the boots. After almost 20 years of using Energy Kinetics equipment, I have no complaints about the products, support, or even the prices. I will gladly pay more when I get more. If we do some pre-piping of that boiler in my shop during tech idle time, we can install it in no time in the customers basement. I'm no rocket scientist, but I know what features make sense in an oil heating system and everything I want I get in that system. Who else in the oil hydronic market has draft sensing with burner lockout on loss of draft (even in chimney applications), combustion air intake using 2" PVC pipe, a way to level the boiler besides shoving scrap metal under it, pump on the supply, and about 20 other configurations that make the homeowners more comfortable while saving substantial amounts of fuel.
    As soon as someone shows me an equivalent system for the money, I will offer it to my customers like I do the System 2000 and all the run-of-the-mill boilers that allow them to make their own choice. I would say that 1 out of 20 of my customers choose one of the lesser models and I think it is strictly a cost issue because the quality of the installation does not vary, only the equipment. The only thing that bothers me is I need a new pair of boots and will probably have to buy them myself.

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    · ·
  • Ron SchroederRon Schroeder Posts: 998Member


    Hi Long Beach Ed,

    I am sure that if you call Energy Kinetics and explain the situation They would give you a cost for a quote. Even if they didn't require it, it is enough "different" that you should take their course before installing one.

    By the way, I think the System 2000 is the highest operating efficiency non condensing heating system Brookhaven National Lab has ever tested.
    · ·
  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 686Member
    You Woun't Believe this...

    Here it goes...

    As we posted earlier, Energy Kinetics would not give us prices for their equipment unless we become a "dealer". To do that we have to go to a class in New Jersey.

    "What the hell," said we, and we attended the class today. Yep, got up at 5:00 AM, took a day of our very busy week and I and a partner drove from Long Beach to Oyster Bay Cove to Manhattan to Jersey so we could learn the prices of this great equipment.

    We sat through a sales presentation. We learned how to vacuum a boiler. We learned how they make a steel boiler; how they shape and weld. We learned how to wire a boiler.

    Their very excited sales manager greeted us, told us how much he looked forward to doing business with us. We purchase perhaps 60 Burnham boilers a year, so perhaps this Kenitics sales guy was really happy to see us. He told us there would be an exciting "dealers package" awaiting us at the end of the class.

    My partner won a jacket, and I won a coffee mug. We ate a tasty lunch. We even paid $75 each for the sales presentation.

    When it was time to leave we went to the office to pick up our exciting package. Let's see...

    Videos... sales brochures... postcards... more sales brochures... no price list.

    NO PRICE LIST!!!

    "Hay, you think we can get a price list so we can sell this stuff"

    "The boilers sell themselves"

    "Well we quote jobs and we need to know our costs"

    "Go sell some jobs and call me and I'll tell you what they will cost you".

    "That would be hard to do, as you see, we compete with other plumbers who know the price of their equipment before they quote a price to their customers"

    "Well we don't usually deal with plumbers... "

    Now, maybe this Kinetic-Koolaide-Drinking-Salesman may not like dealigh with plumbers, but in New York City only a plumber can install a boiler if it happens to fill up with water.

    Just got back home to Long Island. It's 8 PM. Been out of the house fifteen hours for a drinking mug.

    But I did learn one lesson.

    Don't ever, ever, even think of selling an Energe Kinetics System 2000 boiler. Not on a dare.

    I'm even throwing out that Chinese coffee mig.

    Long Beach Ed
    · ·
  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 686Member
    Kinetic-Koolaide

    Here it goes...

    As we posted earlier, Energy Kinetics would not give us prices for their equipment unless we become a "dealer". To do that we have to go to a class in New Jersey.

    "What the hell," said we, and we attended the class today. Yep, got up at 5:00 AM, took a day of our very busy week and I and a partner drove from Long Beach to Oyster Bay Cove to Manhattan to Jersey so we could learn the prices of this great equipment.

    We sat through a sales presentation. We learned how to vacuum a boiler. We learned how they make a steel boiler; how they shape and weld. We learned how to wire a boiler.

    Their very excited sales manager greeted us, told us how much he looked forward to doing business with us. We purchase perhaps 60 Burnham boilers a year, so perhaps this Kenitics sales guy was really happy to see us. He told us there would be an exciting "dealers package" awaiting us at the end of the class.

    My partner won a jacket, and I won a coffee mug. We ate a tasty lunch. We even paid $75 each for the sales presentation.

    When it was time to leave we went to the office to pick up our exciting package. Let's see...

    Videos... sales brochures... postcards... more sales brochures... no price list.

    NO PRICE LIST!!!

    "Hay, you think we can get a price list so we can sell this stuff"

    "The boilers sell themselves"

    "Well we quote jobs and we need to know our costs"

    "Go sell some jobs and call me and I'll tell you what they will cost you".

    "That would be hard to do, as you see, we compete with other plumbers who know the price of their equipment before they quote a price to their customers"

    "Well we don't usually deal with plumbers..."

    Now, maybe this Kinetic-Koolaide-Drinking-Salesman may not like dealigh with plumbers, but in New York City only a plumber can install a boiler if it happens to fill up with water.

    Just got back home to Long Island. It's 8 PM. Been out of the house fifteen hours for a drinking mug.

    But I did learn one lesson.

    Don't ever, ever, even think of selling an Energe Kinetics System 2000 boiler. Not on a dare. I tried, I really tried. I more than tried. Met these people more than half way. Met then at an old chicken farm in rural Jersey in fact.

    I'm even throwing out that Chinese coffee mig.

    Long Beach Ed
    · ·
  • Big BobBig Bob Posts: 24Member


    LOL
    · ·
  • PerryPerry Posts: 381Member
    Could it be...

    that they think they fall into the class of products that sell regardless of price. The old mantra of: "if you have to ask, you can't afford it."

    Now I've occasionally eaten in restruants that do not have prices on their menues - and consider the experience worth the price (about $100 per person last time I did this); but most times I eat in a $15 - $25 per person resturant.

    Is this a boiler that only the super-rich buy where money is not a concern... and they buy exotic name brands (even if the company only makes a few a year - and I live within an hour of one of the premium luxury yatch companies in the world where this happens).

    Somehow I don't see a household boiler in this class. Is it just me?

    I love good marketing - and there is a place for the "no price" gambit; but I have to admit that you have me smiling at your experience.

    Perry
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  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 686Member
    I think...

    Perry,

    I suspect that it's more a case of them pricing the stuff on the fly, charging "whatever they can get".

    "Hay Billy, let's see what this loser will pay..."

    It's bad enough that I have to screw my supplier out of the business, that I have to order from the factory, that my other costs will go up because my gross purchases at the wholesaler have gone down.

    They have an interesting fair quality product with a definate niche market. I believe I could sell them if they were priced fairly. Perhaps even sell a lot of them.

    But we'll never know, will we?

    What an absolutely horrible way to do business.

    Long Beach Ed
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  • KenKen Posts: 1,320Member
    I told you

    they were dirt-bags!

    They pulled an equally bad scene on me 20 years ago. I NEVER forgot it.

    I knew something was whacked when they summoned up all their "dealers" to run over and start the defense theme we read here for days... Hell, they even have a homeowner responding to their "circle the wagons" defense!
    · ·
  • Long Beach EdLong Beach Ed Posts: 686Member
    Howard -- My Wholesaler is My Hero!

    My wholesaler is a part of my business. We work together and depend on one another. We know each others' families and kids. We have coffee together and share in the good times and bad. We've been partners now for almost 30 years. My wholesaler spends my money in my neighborhood. He supports my kids' little league team. He tells me of new products and helps me with ideas of how others are increasing their profits or doing better work.

    And when I have a problem with a boiler, it's my wholesaler who spends all day on the phone protecting my profits so I don't have to lose a day's work. That protects my customers because my wholesaler has much more clout with the manufacturer than do I.

    If the manufacturer chooses to cut the wholesaler out of the sale, it GREATLY increases my risk and liability and nonsense.

    It makes my job harder and more costly. It should lower the price of the product and I should be compensated for my loss.

    The EK-1 may or may not be a good piece of equipment. But with sales practices like theirs, my customers will never get to find out.

    Long Beach Ed
    · ·
  • My story

    Sorry to hear you got burned, Ed. I usually do not post critical things on the web, but O wasted even more time and effort trying to sell their product that you did, and it cost me money.

    I went their dealer route, jumped through their hoops and sold about a half dozen EK-1's and 2's. I paid a different price for each boiler and had to haggle on every sale. The invoice was always higher than the agreed price which cost me more time and trouble. Yes, its lets make a deal and they feel you out and charge you whatever you will pay. Thats why they dont like dealing with the trade. They would rather deal with former Amway salesmen.

    I questioned a rather shoddy practice of theirs in the design and assembly of the boiler after an inspector brought up that it violated the local code. Their response was to drop me as a dealer and not respond to the problem. I had to modify the boiler at my expense or remove it. I removed it.

    One of the other boilers leaked after nine months. It was a nightmare. I ate that repair too, only because the comany played so many games that it was easier and cheaper to just weld the thing myyslef.

    Their technology does not match that of the top quality boilermakers. They charge a very or sometimes very very high price for a product which is inferior by mainstream standards. Any savings from their post-purge technology is quickly wiped out by their inferior durability. With the arrival of first rate controls by stand-up companies such as Tekmar, their primitive design simply does not compete with the mainstream.

    As a professional, as you seem to be by your "wholesaler" post above, you Ed, only stand to lose by dealing with these people. Your overhead is too high, your time too valuable and your reputation too important to buy snake oil from salesmen such as these.

    They did you a favor yesterday. Run away, and tell your customers to do the same.

    Jeff
    Allied
    · ·


  • The regional rep that set me up as a dealer with a dealer ID # and all that was the one to give me the price list.

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    · ·
  • Paul FredricksPaul Fredricks Posts: 1,542Member
    Wow!

    Has this post changed my view of EK! I find it hard to believe that a company works this way, but here are first hand accounts. I can only hope it's salesmen run wild and the company is just ignorant. Sounds like that would be the best case senario.
    · ·
  • Robert O'BrienRobert O'Brien Posts: 2,342Member ✭✭✭
    Ed

    Will this "friend" sell to your customers? Do you think your "friend" is concerned about cutting you out the chain by selling out of the trade? As long as the product moves,your "friend" could care less.

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    · ·
  • Robert O'BrienRobert O'Brien Posts: 2,342Member ✭✭✭
    Jeff

    If I were you I wouldn't mention welding a steel boiler.If I'm not mistaken you need a ASME stamp? Correct me if I'm wrong

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    · ·
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