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Press Fittings

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Comments

  • TJ_4
    TJ_4 Member Posts: 13
    testing


    How long has the system been in operation? What is the mixture of glycol? Has anyone checked the acidity level of the glycol?

    I have thousands of fittings installed with glycol over the last 6 years, since the ProPress system came on the market. The only issue I have had or seen were when the glycol mixture was 100%. This was an accident and it was corrected and we have had no additional issues. We also do service on all of our installed equipment and test the acidity level on an annual basis.

    As far as a 100% glycol mix - there are only special situations that require it and if you don't prepare properly, you will not be able to deliver the BTUs required. I may be wrong but I thought the manufacturer's instructions stated that you can only use up to 50% glycol mix.
    I would be very suprised if after testing the glycol in these systems that the level is 50% or less with no acidity.

    Let me know if anyone needs help testing the glycol.

  • S Davis
    S Davis Member Posts: 491
    Your Kidding Right

    The response bothers me more than the leaks!






    So fittings that looked like these do would be ok for your systems and customers?
    this system has been running with glycol for less than a year and looks awful, it does not meet my standards or my customers expectations and the responce from Viega has been pitiful at best, I have a real hard time using a product that when there is a problem the manufacturer shoots out a letter saying it is normal and leaves you hanging with no support to deal with your customer.



    S Davis
  • Harold
    Harold Member Posts: 249


    I have been following this thread with intrest. As a civilian involved in this, I would like to again provide my input. Some of you may not have seen this problem; but I have it in spades.

    Pipes contain liquids. No junctions shall release the contents of the pipe. Period. If a valve leaks, I have it fixed. If a joint fails, I have it fixed. This has been my
    policy for 50 years.

    I have paid a large amount of money for a premium piping system. I consider the appearance of the system to be an important component of the finished system. I must be able to bring tour groups (e.g., my friends who want to see the new house) through the utility room and not have them say "what are those ugly/green stains around the joints. I have had a request from a regional publication to do an article on the house. The heating system is a significant issue in the uniqueness of the house.

    The ProPress connections are unacceptable to my wife and I. There are also issues with connections where the thread/pipe tolerences are not sufficient to prevent contained fluids from escaping. I have seen very very few sweated joints over the years that have problems. I have always had them fixed. They are broken.

    I have, what I believe to be, a showcase house. ProPress is not compatible with this vision or reasonable consumer expectations.

    My personal opinion at this point is that Viega should pay for the removal of the current installation and provide a replacement using soldered connections installed by the original contractor. This would include all materials, labor, chemical cleaning/purging of the newly installed system, disposal of existing fluids, replacement glycol, and compensation for the disruption, aggravation, and inconvience of the homeowners as well as denying the peaceful enjoyment of their home. In short - complete replacement with no cost to the owner and compensation for the grief. I believe Viaga is selling their products under false pretenses, using false advertising, abrogating their warranty, and not meeting a consumers resonable expectations of performance. This includes discussions of weeping not being a leak vs what an average consumer would expect. I should not have to pay a penalty for using a well promoted and gauranteed system of piping.

  • Harold
    Harold Member Posts: 249
    Civilian view of the situation

    This duplicates a post near the top of the thread that I tried to do to get back to the left margin.

    I have been following this thread with intrest. As a civilian involved in this, I would like to again provide my input. Some of you may not have seen this problem; but I have it in spades.

    Pipes contain liquids. No junctions shall release the contents of the pipe. Period. If a valve leaks, I have it fixed. If a joint fails, I have it fixed. This has been my policy for 50 years.

    I have paid a large amount of money for a premium piping system. I consider the appearance of the system to be an important component of the finished system. I must be able to bring tour groups (e.g., my friends who want to see the new house) through the utility room and not have them say "what are those ugly/green stains around the joints. I have had a request from a regional publication to do an article on the house. The heating system is a significant issue in the uniqueness of the house.

    The ProPress connections are unacceptable to my wife and I. There are also issues with connections where the thread/pipe tolerences are not sufficient to prevent contained fluids from escaping. I have seen very very few sweated joints over the years that have problems. I have always had them fixed. They are broken.

    I have, what I believe to be, a showcase house. ProPress is not compatible with this vision or reasonable consumer expectations.

    My personal opinion at this point is that Viega should pay for the removal of the current installation and provide a replacement using soldered connections installed by the original contractor. This would include all materials, labor, chemical cleaning/purging of the newly installed system, disposal of existing fluids, replacement glycol, and compensation for the disruption, aggravation, and inconvience of the homeowners as well as denying the peaceful enjoyment of their home. In short - complete replacement with no cost to the owner and compensation for the grief. I believe Viaga is selling their products under false pretenses, using false advertising, abrogating their warranty, and not meeting a consumers resonable expectations of performance. This includes discussions of weeping not being a leak vs what an average consumer would expect. I should not have to pay a penalty for using a well promoted and gauranteed system of piping.






  • Floyd
    Floyd Member Posts: 429
    Here again....

    there is no evidence of the pipe being sanded clean at the joints. Just a thought, but is it posible that good copper joining pratices are also very important with the propress just as it is in soldering???? Are we getting too lazy, and trying to push the envelope to the point where we just cut a slap together a system without following good cleanlines practices and then go blaming propres for our apparent lack of attention to details that we would normally follow if we were soldering???
    I have used to propress for over a year now, with great results, but have always been very careful to clean every joint before assembly and crimping, just as I would for soldering. Lately I have noticed my son getting sloppy in the cleaning....the propress joints just never leak......so we get sloppy in our workmanship.....
    I think it's time to pay attention to the details again.. with that 122 cutting machine it takes all of a couple of seconds to run the pipe on the wire wheel... could be a life (money) saving couple of seconds.....
    Not ready yet to throw the baby out with the bath water.... I'm loving the time I save with my PP.....

    Floyd
  • Floyd
    Floyd Member Posts: 429


    > I have been following this thread with intrest.

    > As a civilian involved in this, I would like to

    > again provide my input. Some of you may not have

    > seen this problem; but I have it in

    > spades.

    >

    > Pipes contain liquids. No junctions

    > shall release the contents of the pipe. Period.

    > If a valve leaks, I have it fixed. If a joint

    > fails, I have it fixed. This has been my policy

    > for 50 years.

    >

    > I have paid a large amount of

    > money for a premium piping system. I consider the

    > appearance of the system to be an important

    > component of the finished system. I must be able

    > to bring tour groups (e.g., my friends who want

    > to see the new house) through the utility room

    > and not have them say "what are those ugly/green

    > stains around the joints. I have had a request

    > from a regional publication to do an article on

    > the house. The heating system is a significant

    > issue in the uniqueness of the house.

    >

    > The

    > ProPress connections are unacceptable to my wife

    > and I. There are also issues with connections

    > where the thread/pipe tolerences are not

    > sufficient to prevent contained fluids from

    > escaping. I have seen very very few sweated

    > joints over the years that have problems. I have

    > always had them fixed. They are broken.

    >

    > I

    > have, what I believe to be, a showcase house.

    > ProPress is not compatible with this vision or

    > reasonable consumer expectations.

    >

    > My

    > personal opinion at this point is that Viega

    > should pay for the removal of the current

    > installation and provide a replacement using

    > soldered connections installed by the original

    > contractor. This would include all materials,

    > labor, chemical cleaning/purging of the newly

    > installed system, disposal of existing fluids,

    > replacement glycol, and compensation for the

    > disruption, aggravation, and inconvience of the

    > homeowners as well as denying the peaceful

    > enjoyment of their home. In short - complete

    > replacement with no cost to the owner and

    > compensation for the grief. I believe Viaga is

    > selling their products under false pretenses,

    > using false advertising, abrogating their

    > warranty, and not meeting a consumers resonable

    > expectations of performance. This includes

    > discussions of weeping not being a leak vs what

    > an average consumer would expect. I should not

    > have to pay a penalty for using a well promoted

    > and gauranteed system of piping.



  • Floyd
    Floyd Member Posts: 429
    UUUHHHHH... Harold......

    Don't you think you should reserve judgement here till you know what the full story is???? Just because Viega has not responded yet, do you think for one minute that they are not taking a discussion like this a the #1 forum for heating on the internet seriously????? Get real man...... I can understand that your upset, but don't let that impare your better judgement!!!!
    What if it was a simple thing like that fact that your contracter failed to clean the pipe and fittings properly??
    You are trashing the good reputaion of a company and making you self look like a horse's arse.....

    Maybe not.... but why take the chance????

    JMHO Floyd
  • mtfallsmikey
    mtfallsmikey Member Posts: 765
    hot rod makes a good point with Vaillant

    I jumped on the bandwagon early with them, sold a bunch. Never had any block issues, just the target wall (or cone,or whatever) would crumble, just replaced the second one on a boiler I installed for a friend some years ago that I still service. We can all thank Vaillant for the concept of a swing door on the front that allowed full access to the chamber, and all the others following suit.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Gotta be kidding...

    Swing out and wing-nutted HX clean-outs were on 1940's Arcoliners and Peerless boilers before we were born. Like radiant, high-efficency boilers and burners, we wrote the books.

    G.E. was making condensing oil boilers in 1936. The euros simply followed our leads, over and over again. They have however taken marketing to levels we never achieved, from which we have yet to learn the lesson.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Flloyd...

    How much longer do you think Harold should wait?

    How many more suspect fittings should he wait for?

    The problem, based on what I read, is longstanding, somewhat isolated and sadly, simply unnoticed because there were no visible puddles on the floor. That, in and of itself is requires we all re-think the real issue, e.g., Just because we don't see water on the floor - does not suggest there are and/or were no leaks !!!

    I also suggest, we are NOT trashing any single maker of the tool; or the fittings.
  • solver solder on solar

    Hot Rod, are you using silver solder that you have to braze or just silverbrite 100? Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    So

    How come nearly all the stuff made here in the US since the boilers you mentioned digressed as far as ease of service and type of construction? Only recently have we seen more US makers step up to the plate and provide swing out doors, three pass designs etc, etc.

    I am not anti US or trying to bash our US boiler companies in any way. They just got behind a little and are now catching up. The MPO from Burnham is a shining example of what US makers can and should be doing. I'd like to see all of our US makers drop there base model product and raise the bar across the board. Go head to head with the best they can find anywhere, not just Germany.
  • mtfallsmikey
    mtfallsmikey Member Posts: 765
    Let me clarify..gotta be kidding!

    Especially for you, Ken. Yes, I am more than familiar with Arcoliners, G.E. counterflow boilers using a compressor instead of a conventinal burner,Harvey Whipples,Iron Fireman, the Winkler low-pressure burner, yada,yada,yada. I've worked on them all,bro! I touched my first oil boiler in 1965. And yes there were swing out doors before, but U.S. manufacturers did not go BACK to them until Vaillant hit the market! Did any U.S. mfr. use them during the frantic re-engineering days of the early 70's and the Arab oil embargo? How many early 70's to late 80's W/M oil boilers did you have the "pleasure' to service? Was their design reason the Soot Saw came on the market? Do you think a triple-pass boiler would have worked with the Gen 1 flame retention burners that sooted so badly? I'm not anti-U.S. tech. bashing, just sharing what I've seen in my 40 years or so of experience. Look at autos, especially Honda, and their proven reliability and longevity, and technical innovations vs. what the big 3 are offering..especially DIAMLER-Chrysler!
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    Thanks for the Real Deal...

    More like 30 years ahead of the US. Ken's comments are Klassic Kurmudgeonly. I must ask, where are the US innovations in the hydronic heating industry, or HVAC air handlers over the past 20 years?
    Like variable speed pumps, variable speed motors for AHU's, outdoor reset, wall panel rads,TRV's, but to name a few.
    OK, maybe Honeywell had a primitive outdoor reset, but did not capture the market with the product, nor develop the line with microprocessors. We simply copy what's across the pond.


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  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Loved your reponse...

    But it wasn't needed.

    You merely mentioned Vaillant had a clean out door, was euro, and no one else did.

    I disagreed, cited some rather obvious evidence; now, somehow, its about something else?

    Your rant is interesting, but soot saws and W/M's offerings are hardly on point. Or did I miss something?

    You wanted to somehow defend Vaillant's sudden departure and failure to compete in the U.S. I stated, Vaillant did NOT "invent" an HX service access point, American know how and ingenuity did!

    How else could you keep the coal dust down on those surfaces (;-o)
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    You should be ready for another fishing trip

    by now!

    FYI, Heat Timer Corp., Barber-Coleman, General Electric and Universal Engineering were making programmable and outdoor resets before you were born; and that was back in the mid 1800's!

    I have no idea where you get such mis-information, but the obvious place is from the marketeers you so naievely support, the euros.

    The need for VSPumps was elimintaed by virtue of three way mixing valves, also before you were born. The euros were too busy killing each other when we invented this stuff.

    Hell, we've had modulating steam boilers since 1860. Throw more coal on, let it burn, throw more on...

    Wall panel rads? Check out Holohan's LAOSH. Around page three. Picture of an old lady next to her panel rad, dated late 1800's I think!

    I know you're just busting chops, but the thought thatyou could actually be almost serious scares the hell out of me. How could any one person be so ingnorant of history?

    I know: "Great marketing will overcome mediocre engineering every time; typically in a ratio of 2:1"
  • Ray Landry
    Ray Landry Member Posts: 203
    poll

    How many people actually clean NEW copper tube when using propress?
  • singh
    singh Member Posts: 866
    Good point Ray

    Reading this post has made me think twice about how I install PP fittings.
    I will never go back to 100% soldering, but now I will take more care pressing fittings, including a little grit paper to the pipe before slipping the fitting on.

    I still believe PP is a great innovation, in such a short period of time it has caught on well, even greater acceptance than PEX , IMO.

    What is scary are the knock off products, and these push to fit fittings.
    Disasters waiting to happen.

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  • Harold
    Harold Member Posts: 249


    It would seem to me that since the seal is from an O ring pressing against the pipe, you would want the pipe surface to be very smooth and would need very fine cleaning abrasive.
  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    Thanks Ken

    I am glad I didn't have to reply on that one. By the way, the digital reset controls that everyone installs today are all modeled after the pneumatic controls that were installed in the 1940's and 1950's here in the US and not there.
  • Tolerances ?

    How out-of-round can the copper pipe be and still have a good press seal ?

    The copper we've been getting is all over the chart - one day it slips in the fittings loose , the next day your're hammering them in . On the 1 inch and 1 1/4 inch you can actually see the seam protruding on the pipe .

    How much slack can the press seals take up ?
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Bob, I use

    that new, fairly new, JW Harris Blockade. Melts a few hundred degrees lower than any of the sil-phos rods. Easily solders up to 1" with a plain mapp torch.

    It flows and caps very nicely also.

    hot rod

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  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Ray

    Our procedure is to cut witha good sharp wheel in the cutter, deburr inside and out with Ridge's own copper deburring tool, then polish up a bit with some open mesh, run your bare hand around inside and out to check for burrs, fit and press. Takes less time to actually do it than to read this reply.

    The job we did that I noticed the seepage on, was done before we started the practice of hitting the tube with the open mesh cloth.
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    I would guess

    The ProPress fittings are probably quite forgiving of out of round tube. It gets pressed into a slight hexagon during the process anyhow. My gut tells me the the issue with out of round tube is going to be cutting or nicking the o-ring during assembly.
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Mr Davis

    Do you have a record of the brand of glycol that was used in the system? I'm curious as to whether it may be a common denominator in some of these cases.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    I am puzzled...

    As to what each fitting-maker and pressing-device tool manufacturer has written in their "use and operation manuals" with regatd to tubing prep requirements!

    They must provide guidance as to what must be done to the copper tubing, and the fitting itself - in order to assure a secure joint.

    Many have commented on what they do in the line of joint prep; ranging from nothing, to steel wooling, sand-cloth, deburring, and reaming, etc.; but, no one has bothered to tell us what the fitting and tool makers require.

    Surely these mandates/instructions are included in the manufacturer's "instructions for use manuals" that came with the tools and/or fittings?

    Remarkably, not one poster in a huge thread like this, bothered to quote the ultimate authority: The manufacturer.

    Anybody still have the tool and fitting instruction manual(s)?

  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    Specs.

  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    Specs.

  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    Specs.

  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    WOW! Thanks!

    So, this particular tool maker says no need to clean the tube at all, just wheel-cut (or hack saw), de-burr both O.D. and I.D. of the tubing, and make a few marks to assure full engagement...

    I wonder if the lubricant/coolant the tubing maker uses to draw the copper at the factory may be having a compatibility issue with the 'o'-rings?

    As an aside, let's also remember the only reason we would even consider this form of joint is about labor savings - period. Should the manufactuer's require more than just I.D., O.D. deburring, the pluses would quickly turn to a negative, e.g., "You must steel wool the deburred end to assure no oxides remain on the tubing, thereby assuring the removal of any surface contaminants that may be detrimental to the 'o'-ring properties and longevity." Or if they also suggested, "Wipe the pipe end with a clean rag with a detergent or solvent to assure any potentially present tube manufacturing residual trace contamination, is removed before pressing."

    I have no clue. It is purely a rhetorical question, for the moment, that is...




  • Woodman
    Woodman Member Posts: 13
    \"Leak proof\"

    Viega's own instructions posted above states a "leak proof permanent connection" after pressing. Seems that the warranty dept should consult with the instructions dept.
  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    Question # 2 ?

    What is going to oxidize quicker, the freshly sanded pipe or the pipe fresh of the shelf unsanded?
  • Harold
    Harold Member Posts: 249
    Floyd

    Risking further references to animal nether regions; I do not believe I am taking an unreasonable position. That post was also out of sequence, so perhaps reading more of the thread may have softened you point of view.

    Just a bit more info. My system was filled with glycol last fall to prevent freezing. The house is still not occupied. The boiler has not been run more than 3 or 4 times in the last year. And then probably not for more that 24 hours total. That would not be a whole lot of Viaga's expansion and contraction.

    The fittings were installed in accordance with manufacturers instructions. As I would have expected from my skilled and conscientious contractor.

    I have already voted with my wallet. I do not get to build a house again and try something else out. We die here. I had all of the water side plumbing done with solder instead of the matching ProPress they had planned. I get to do that. I do not want ProPress in the house. Period. I also get to do that.

    If my front door hardware with a 50 year warranty against corrosion started turning green, I would expect the manufacturer to replace it. Period. No response that it is only a little green would be acceptable. Nor that my air may be a bit more polluted and that all the hardware does that a bit. Should I accept a plumbing job with pinholes in the copper that are not leaking bad enough to cause a problem right now? I really can't think of many things for which I would accept that kind of response.

    This is my house. I have done a lot of the work myself. My wife and I are proud of the results. As noted, we will live here for the rest of our lives. I do not view mechanical rooms as a dark, ugly, dripping pits. I have not allowed any contractors working on the house to provide sloppy or esthetically displeasing results. I have used only excellent materials. Heating shall not be the exception.

    I was aware of the responses from Viega when I posted the message you took umbrage with, and had not been satisified with them. If they take this view of their product, why should I believe that things will not get worse in future years. There are no long term field installations. This would not be the first plumbing connectors that made life easier for installers and then failed catastrophically in the long term. I am not going to experiment.
  • swanmech
    swanmech Member Posts: 69
    No leaks.

    > your up, alot of guys here have major investments

    > in your products. Let's have the truth about

    > whats going on. J.Lockard





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  • swanmech
    swanmech Member Posts: 69
    Been waiting to more

    > Risking further references to animal nether

    > regions; I do not believe I am taking an

    > unreasonable position. That post was also out of

    > sequence, so perhaps reading more of the thread

    > may have softened you point of view.

    >

    > Just a

    > bit more info. My system was filled with glycol

    > last fall to prevent freezing. The house is

    > still not occupied. The boiler has not been run

    > more than 3 or 4 times in the last year. And then

    > probably not for more that 24 hours total. That

    > would not be a whole lot of Viaga's expansion and

    > contraction.

    >

    > The fittings were installed in

    > accordance with manufacturers instructions. As I

    > would have expected from my skilled and

    > conscientious contractor.

    >

    > I have already voted

    > with my wallet. I do not get to build a house

    > again and try something else out. We die here. I

    > had all of the water side plumbing done with

    > solder instead of the matching ProPress they had

    > planned. I get to do that. I do not want

    > ProPress in the house. Period. I also get to do

    > that.

    >

    > If my front door hardware with a 50 year

    > warranty against corrosion started turning green,

    > I would expect the manufacturer to replace it.

    > Period. No response that it is only a little

    > green would be acceptable. Nor that my air may be

    > a bit more polluted and that all the hardware

    > does that a bit. Should I accept a plumbing job

    > with pinholes in the copper that are not leaking

    > bad enough to cause a problem right now? I really

    > can't think of many things for which I would

    > accept that kind of response.

    >

    > This is my

    > house. I have done a lot of the work myself. My

    > wife and I are proud of the results. As noted, we

    > will live here for the rest of our lives. I do

    > not view mechanical rooms as a dark, ugly,

    > dripping pits. I have not allowed any contractors

    > working on the house to provide sloppy or

    > esthetically displeasing results. I have used

    > only excellent materials. Heating shall not be

    > the exception.

    >

    > I was aware of the responses

    > from Viega when I posted the message you took

    > umbrage with, and had not been satisified with

    > them. If they take this view of their product,

    > why should I believe that things will not get

    > worse in future years. There are no long term

    > field installations. This would not be the first

    > plumbing connectors that made life easier for

    > installers and then failed catastrophically in

    > the long term. I am not going to experiment.





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  • swanmech
    swanmech Member Posts: 69
    Been waiting to hear more

    Been waiting to hear more from VIEGA on this problem.
    I have been using the propress fittings for about 3 years know with no problems (yet), but they are 100% water.
    I will be at their NA Ed Facility this coming week and this will be brought up.
    As a contractors that purchased the Propress tools and fittings to improve the quality appearance of my systems, this must be takin care of!

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  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    Harold


    I think you are 100% justified and your last post was spot on.

    There is such a thing as psychological comfort and it is obvious that you will NEVER be comfortable with the ProPress system.

    We were at one time considering the ProPress, but after seeing how you have been treated by the company, we'll pass.

    I hope you get ALL that you ask for.

    Mark H

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  • Josh_10
    Josh_10 Member Posts: 787


    Two thoughts:

    1) I am glad I enjoy soldering.. Which is why I haven't switched.

    2) Why isn't Viega saying ANYTHING here? Do they have any idea how many customers they might possibly be losing right now? Step up to the plate guys!
  • Jeff Matson_2
    Jeff Matson_2 Member Posts: 12
    Looking into it

    Viega believes firmly in the quality of the ProPress product. We are looking into this situation in detail to find the determining factors. We are working with this contractor to resolve the issue.

    Jeff
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    The logic of

    Harold's point is flawless.

    Then there's the law. It is not based on logic, but written laws, and our intpretation thereof.

    Mnaufacturer's, especially the euro-sourced, have lawyers who can produce 10-gigs of fine print on a warranty faster than I can say NY Mets.

    Typically they limit liability to product replacement - ONLY! No labor. No damages.

    But, if you have state Consumer Affairs areas of power, by all means call and see how far that venue can go.

    There will be excuses. There will be claims of everything from their "Full moon installation guide" to "The machine wasn't calibrated for true north" - like stuff.

    Let us know how it works out. I'm totally on your side on this one.
This discussion has been closed.