Flame rollout at startup

Ken C.

Had a call for a gas boiler that was producing soot; the homeowner had turned it off prior to my arrival. First thing I checked was the flue (both up on the roof and at the smoke pipe), no obstruction. The cast-iron burner air intakes/vestibule area were full of lint, however (boiler was in laundry room). I asked the homeowner when the last time the boiler was cleaned, she said about three years ago, but I suspected it was more like 10 years ago. I cleaned the soot and lint out of the boiler, vacuumed the burners and replaced the pilot assembly (the pilot flame was yellow). When I fired the boiler up, I noticed the flames rolled out, but only at ignition. I know the rollout couldn't be from flue blockage, because I just cleaned the boiler. What else could cause burner flame to rollout at ignition? The flame looked normal otherwise, and the boiler passed the match-at-the-draft-hood check.

Robert O'Connor_7

Roll out.....

Three reasons I know of to cause soot. 1st is a blocked flue.. 2nd is incorrect gas pressure.. 3rd is lack of combustion air. My guess is lack of combustion air.. Is the house tight constuction? If so, having that other apliance there is probably pulling your flue gases into the occupied space. Now for the $64,000.00 question and (I hope the answer is yes) IS THERE A CO DETECTOR THAT WORKS, CLOSE BY????? Robert O'Connor

Ken C.

Yes, it is a newer house (maybe 20 years old). There is a gas water heater next to the boiler. They have a finished basement, and the laundry room/boiler room is partitioned off. Futhermore, the door to this room has no louvers. They claim they leave the door open at all times, but who knows. I recommended a "fan in a can," which pulls combustion air from outdoors through a dedicated duct, but they didn't want to spend the money on that, as they are doing some remodeling upstairs. And yes, I did tell them to get a carbon monoxide detector.

jim lockard

delayed ignition

My short answer is keep cleaning the burners Ken. My longer answer is what the gas pressure, is the pilot mounted and Installed connectly. Sounds like the gas is running down the burners and then firing. MH is going to ask if you checked for CO and if you put your Fyrite combustion anylizer on the boiler and what are your reading. why did your boiler soot? Low air,Low fuel, dryer lint? poor combustion have you corrected it?
Best of Luck J.Lockard

rudy_2

The match test.....

All the 'match in the draft hood' test tells you is if the draft hood is pulling in air - it does not let you know if sufficient air is being pulled into the burner area, which is where it is really important.

Apparently, it is not pulling in air around the burner area if it is rolling out on ignition....

You need to forget the match test and get a draft gauge and combustion analyzer to really tell you what is going on and whether a dangerous condition exists.

And like Robert implied, soot on a gas fired piece of equipment is absolute positive evidance that tremendous levels of CO are being produced.....

jim lockard

Combustion Air

Yea right we leave the door to the laundry always open. Ken talk to your customer about cut 2 holes in the wall with vents one high one low. Got to get air in the space. Gas dryer too ?

Ken C.

Test equipment

You're right, I do need to get a draft gauge, combustion analyzer and CO detector. Trouble is, my boss is not likely to pay for them. He won't even supply leather work gloves! I am willing to buy this equipment if he won't, but it will probably be several months, as I don't have the money to spend several hundred dollars on those items at the present time.

Ken C.

I didn't check the gas pressure, as I don't have a magnehelic gauge or U-tube, although I understand they're relatively inexpensive. It's the combustion analyzer and CO detector that I can't afford (my boss is unlikely to pay for that equipment). I did replace their dryer vent though. It was a plastic vent that had a crack in it, I changed it to a smooth-walled metal vent.

Ken C.

I noted on the invoice that there should be two air vents in the laundry room door. The dryer is electric.

jim lockard

I'm Sorry Ken.

Your boss needs to know that people rely on him and you to take care of them and thier familys. If your boss can not do right by his customers then he needs to find a new line of work. It will be to late when the lawyer or the insurance co is at the door

jim lockard

Richie Yellow Jacket

Sells a nice little gas gauge in a case. Get the LP one and you can check both LP and Nat

Ken C.

I'm going to ask my boss if he will buy this equipment. I'd be surprised if he agrees to, but I won't know unless I ask. I will post back here and let you know what his response is.

Robert O'Connor_7

Combustion???

Take a look at the 2000 International Mechanical Code, depending on the aplication, you MAY be required to have 1 sq. inch, per thousand BTU. That's (2) TWO air sources, 1 within 12" of the ceiling & 1 within 12" of the floor. Doors with openings don't aply. This job is a horrific story in the making. Please urge your boss or these people to effect repairs, or guess what? YOU might be implicated in the future. If your boss isn't sharp enough to listen to reason, then limit your own liabiliy!! I predict a few more posts............ Robert O'Connor (the Jersey one)

rudy_2

I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, but.....

I work for Bacharach so I'm probably going to get in trouble for recommending this, but what the heck ....

Until you have the bucks for a (Bacharach) analyzer, you might want to buy a nice little draft gauge for about $30.

It's a brand X 460 air meter, NCI sells them: http://www.ncinstitute.com/AirMeter.htm

PS. Don't tell anybody but I still have one in my Fyrite Pro case when I run service!! The Pro's digital pressure feature is nice for setting up gas pressure and documenting draft but I like to hang the 460 in the stack on light off so I can see how fast draft is established.

Kal Row

i suspect the clothes drier

is making neg pressure there and causing rollout - get a fresh air vent in there NOW!!!, if CO wasnt orderless, i'd be able to smell across the net, better get paid for whatever you did - while they are still alive!!!


ps i have seen a drier vented into the flue, make sure this isnt the case

lchmb

told them

Ken I am not sure where you are located but if they have cut down to that extent the combustion air then it should not be a recommendation it should be a requirement. If they do not want to correct the issue while you are there shut the unit down and red tag it...for your own liability..if they relight it they own it not you. As to rollout on fireup..Weil Mclain and a few other's have that issue. Check your flow and lockup on both side's of the gas valve and see if there are fluctuation's on a call for heat. Also check with a manometer to see that the unit is running properly..W/M cga have a two step gas valve..for propane on low fire should be 3 or 4 inch's watercolum.. on high fire should be 10...good luck
P.S. another option to the air in the can is a trunk line from the outside..it's open constently and the only cost is the pipe...you have to of course run one low and one high...I put one at the burner and one near the top..

hr

Chech the orfices, also

ocassionally LP and natural gas get mixed and cause sooting.

A gas valve that is not OEM can also cause roll out if it was designed for soft start or two step valves.

hot rod

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Steve Miller

roll out

It's hard for me to beleive that anyone would attempt a service call without a manometer, gas sniffer or a combustion analzer. There's way too many lawyers around to be not checking that stuff. It's not enought to just tell a customer to get a CO detector, you have to test and document. I write it up as: Checked for CO and gas leaks and found nothing during time of the testing, so at least you can cover you arse because conditions can change. Anyway, Hot Rod is right, the gas valve may have been changed and especially on larger boilers they may have used slow opening valves orig. and replaced it with a fast opening. As for the soot, Check your flame off the burners, if it's yellow, the air shutters may be closed or full of lint. Here in Colorado Spgs, if the furnace or boiler is in a laundry room and you do a change out, the door has to be removed. Now, heating equipment is not allowed in laundry rooms on new construction but is Grandfathered in for excisting situations.

Ask your boss if you can pick up the testing equipment you need at the supply house on his account and have him take it out of your check over a few weeks. If not, look for another outfit to work for. Just my .02

Steve M

rudy_2

Combustion/make up air requirements

Also keep in mind that an analyzer can help determine if combustion or make up air is the problem.

Just by firing up the burner, waiting till the numbers on the analyzer stabalize, then opening up a door (or window) to the outside or turning on the clothes dryer and seeing if the test results change can help verify these factors.

My problem with code requirements is that they are prescriptive based as opposed to performance based - sure it 'should' work with so many inches of net free openings based on the btu input - but does it really?
Like we say "If ya don't test, ya don't know"
JMHO, rudy

Unknown

Ken, it is me again

right here in RI to help you. What is the location of this job? It needs some professional attention. I am willing on a one time basis to come out for FREE and look at this job. The deal is I want to talk to your boss about safety, and the need for proper equipment if he is going to service gas equipment. There also needs to be some training conducted so combustion issues can be easily recognized and safely dealt with. You are starting your career and the last thing you want to happen is some one to get hurt because of a lack of test equipment.

lchmb

my two cents

Tim in my opinion you are the kind of person that will make this industry great..I find that your offer for a one time no cost is an incredible offer..thumb's up to you...and here's hoping the boss listen's..:)

Robert O'Connor_6

What

a generous offer ! Ken I hope you can take advantage of Tim's offer. I ordered some books from Tim and all I can say is I am not disappointed.

A little training is very necessary to keep you and your customers safe!! The life you save could be your own!!

Robert O'Connor

Auburn ME

jackchips_2

I echo

lc's comments, but then that's Tim.

paul lessard_3

I know Tim sleeps well @ night

You da man Mcelwain!!

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Mad Dog

Kenny! PUT IT ON A CREDIT CARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You may save lives here. I NEVEr depended on bosses to pay for seminars or anything. Invest in the equipmen for your own edification and piece of mind. When you start testing and knowing your stuuf, the boss, will take notice. If he's smart, he will reimburse you OR pay you commisions when u use it. At the very least, you will be building up a littl eniche business for yourself to ease the transition when you go out on yer own someday. Mad Dog

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Mark Eatherton1

Ken,

You need to heed the information that has been provided to you. Additionally, the dryer lint is a major problem. You need to locate the dryer vent leak and fix it or the boiler will become sooted up real quick again.

Take it from a recognized expert witness, you were the last one to work on it, and if you didn't test it for CO production, there are not enough words in the dictionary that you could write on the contract, even with the tenants signature that would keep you and your bosses butts from getting fried should someone die, or worse yet be permenantly maimed by this situation.

This service is not a "freebie" service. The equipment will more than pay for itself.

Do the right thing, and sleep well at night knowing that you did.

ME

Mark Hunt

Your case sounds

like a bad gas valve or poor gas pressure. Most likely a gas valve.

If the water heater doesn't roll out even with the boiler running, it can't be "combustion air".

Without a manometer, you can't tell.

I would suggest you take Timmie up on his offer and let him come out with some test equipment. You'll find the problem.

Then let Timmie talk to your boss. If that doesn't move him, have him call a lawyer and find out how much it will cost him if he sends a service tech into a house without the proper tools. If someone gets hurt or dies, it will be a heck of a lot more expensive than 10 combustion analyzers.

If I get my way, your boss will soon have no choice but to train and equip you.

People trust you with their lives, and you better believe that.

Mark H

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Pat Clark

Ken

I hope you take Tim up on this.

Ken, do not feel like you are being dumped on. We (Ken on top of the list) are really trying to help. I grew up in this industry learning on my own and at first thought that I didn't want to look stupid. God, I made a lot of mistakes, but also had people around that would help. I have little patience for those that don't accept outside help. Hey, look a little dumb once, the next time you will know even more. Continue to grow and learn. That is our #1 job to be able to provide the best service to our customers.

Don't ever turn down help from others. Your problem is a potential danger to your customer!! Do not accept anything but the solution to the problem. Doesn't matter where it comes from or who is the good guy or the bad guy. It is always in the best interest of the customer to DO THE RIGHT THING. Check your ego at the door. You will grow from the experience.

Pat Clark

Ken C.

Tools are always a good investment

I used to work for a company owned by three brothers. One of them was always buying the latest tools, and the other two brothers would criticize him. Having the right tools can save time, effort, and lives. As he used to tell me, "Once you buy it, it's yours forever" (as long as you buy good quality). One time I went to a pawn shop looking to buy a used Sawzall. The man behind the counter said if he was ever forced to pawn off some possessions, it would be anything but tools. "Tools make money," he said.

Ken C.

Hello Tim

The job is actually in your town. Thank you for your offer, I will be calling you this morning.

Ken C.

I appreciate all the replies

No, I don't feel like I'm being ganged up on. I realize I have a lot to learn. Unfortunately, I don't work with anyone who has this equipment, who can show me how to use it. It would be nice to work with someone who's very experienced at heating, but now, I have to rely on reading as much as I can about it and asking questions on The Wall. As for Tim's offer, it's very generous and I do want to take him up on it, but on the other hand, I don't want to get fired. Then again, better to lose a job (can be replaced) than a life (which cannot be replaced).

Unknown

Ken did call this AM

I told him to run it by his boss before having me go out on the job. It is good business ethics to do that, I hope he approves me going out to look at the job. We will keep you posted.

Earthfire

Tools

The days of two screwdrivers, a hammer, a pair of pliers and a saw are long gone. In some 35 years of working (dang, I'm getting to be one of them old farts)a couple of cross country moves(to the land of Mormon and back)a couple of marriages, and various other relationships (business & personal), the one constant in my life has been my TOOLS. Money,cars,trucks,jobs,women,good times & bad times come and go, but if you take care of them your tools will always be there for you. No matter where you are, if you have your tools you can use them to get you whatever you need to keep going. AND the TOOLS don't complain about being used,or if you get another one. When they stick me in the ground throw my tools in with me so I can get out! TOOLS!! LOVE EM AND NEVER LEAVE EM!!