Zone valve problem

Odieds69

Ok i have asked here befor on kinda this same problem, but now i know a bit more... 1st off the basic setup.. i had radiators on 1st and 2nd floor and no heat in my finished basement so i decided to add new copper baseboard. The contractor did the basement in a "perimitor wrap" with the baseboard and 3/4 inch copper pipe to supply the water and they added a Honeywell zone valve... Well after a year of trying to figure out where the hell this massive banging noise was coming from i FINALLY figured it out to be the zone valve closing...i called them out and they said yep thats what is making that God awful banging, but nothing we can do about it!!!! My question's to you all is this 1st off what can be done...2nd off did they make a mistake using 3/4inch piping(they kid that came out said perhaps the can use 1 inch from boiler and scale it down to the rest of the 3/4 inch but then the banging will be further up where it meets the 3/4) 3rd with it being a year now and if they wont pay to fix it the right way is there any legal ways to make them fix it??

Thanks in advance,
~Warren

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Sounds as though

the water is coming to a screetching halt when that zone valve closes.

Presumably this only happens when one of the other zones is on, otherwise the pump would stop when the basement zone valve closes and you wouldn't get that noise.

Perhaps some kind of bypass could be installed to divert the kinetic energy of the pump. Perhaps a pressure differential bypass valve, a big name for a simple device.

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KCA_2

Well...


From what I can tell of what you described about the system, 3/4" piping could be OK. Depends, but that alone probably wouldn't cause the hammer.

What size pumps do you have on the system?
:-) Kca

Unknown

Make sure

the Honeywell Zone Valves are not installed backwards. Is the water flowing in the direction of the arrows on ZV?

Odieds69

Actually

the way i figured it was the basement zone vavle was that i turn the therstat to the house all the way down, however the pump is always running.. this is only my 2nd heat season in this house, i bought it in march of 2000 and had the baseboard put in in nov 2001, but the limited time of the 1st years heating i swore that the pump didnt run all the time(boiler room is directly under 1st floor bathroom so u can hear the water running or **** u guys call it"valocity noise" from the pump) but i dont remember hearing it b4 the added the new zone valves...however when i brought it up to them they said it was how it was made..its a old(30years atleast) wiel mclane(sp) boiler with the pump on the return side..so to make a long story short...it makes the noise with the pump always on even when othere zone is closed

Odieds69

HeHe

Yes it is the correct way....1st thing i looked at....but great idea...i notice when contractors do the job the hurry at the end and that is a easy mistake to make

Odieds69

Sorry no idea

I went and looked and i have no clue as to what size it is

heatboy

Sounds like......

the zone valve is backwards?

Warm Regards,

hb

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

888-UB-COMFY

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Pat_2

banging zone valve

This is a common problem we run into all the time. The problem is not the zone valve specifically, but the way your system is operating. If I read you correctly, the contractor added a new 3/4" loop with a Honeywell Zone Valve and you have other zones in the house. Your pump is running all the time (constant). I am assuming you do not have an open loop (garage unit heater without zone valve or a bypass loop installed at the boiler). Here is what is happening.

The zone valve will not close cleanly due to the pressure exerted by the pump. This causes the ball to quickly open and close at the end of the closure which is causing the banging noise. This is not a zone valve problem as the valve is not designed to overcome the pump pressure.

There are 4 solutions to remedy this problem.

1. Rewire the pump through a relay (probably already exists on the boiler) so that if all zones close the pump shuts down. This will also help extend the life of the pump as it will tend to fail early if it runs with no circulation path for the water to follow. Also make sure the burner is wired through the relay also as you do not want the burner on with no circulation through the boiler.

2. Repipe the boiler header and install a bypass loop (3/4" pipe from the supply header to the return header with no zone valve in the loop). The pump can remain on constantly if you choose this method.

3. Replace the zone valve with a Taco Zone Valve. (This valve closes differently and will usually not cause the banging, however I would still recommend that solution 1 or 2 above still be done.

4. Remove one of the springs on the zone valve which allows it to close slower. This is temporary at best and may allow water to continually bypass the valve causeing an overheat situation in the zone. At least this may get you a decent nights sleep until one of the other fixes can be done.

Hope this helps. The first 3 solutions should be done by a professional who understands how the system works.

Pat Clark

Bell Plumbing & Heating

Odieds69

Thanks

Sounds like you have a good idea...i will talk to the owner of the company tomarrow and see what he can do..thanks a ton!!

~Warren

Glenn Harrison

Have to agree with Pat

If the main house zone is off, and you turn down the basement zone, the pump needs to turn off almost immediatly after the stat is turned down.

1) How many wires are going to the zone valve? There should be four to each valve for it to work properly. There is a trigger or "end" switch in each valve that closes as each valve fully opens and opens as each valve starts to close. These end switches tell the boiler and pump to cycle on and off as the valves open and close. If you only have two wires to these valves then the wrong style of valves were put in.

2)What kind of aquastat do you have on the boiler? Does it have a single temp setting or multiple settings (known as a triple aquastat). If it has multiple settings, one for the burner and one for the pump, the pump side will need to be disconnected and connected to a relay that will be connected to the above mentioned "end" switches.

3) If neither of the above situations applies, then there is a wiring problem of somekind which will need to be addressed.

It sound like the best thing you could do is give up on the contractor who put in the baseboard and get another opinion on the whole situation. Click on "Find a Contractor or e-mail me if your anywhere near Chicago.

Glenn Harrison

Althoff Industries Inc.

Crystal Lake, Illinois

Jim_47

Zone valve banging noises

I had a similar situation. Replaced a cast iron boiler with a new steel boiler. Problem was just as described here in the other replies, there was enough velocity in the system when atleast two zones were open that if one closed the system would bang. Seems as though I had reduced overall system friction just by changing the type of boiler! My end solution was to change the common circulator. The pump curve diffrence was enough to stop the banging. I went from a Taco 007 to a 3spd grundfos. Funny thing during my calculations I was looking at having to run in the middle speed. Ended up that the top speed was just enough diffrent from the taco 007 to make the difference. I heard all the other responses as well here on the wall and the easiest was to change the circulator. I was prepared though to put in the bypass pipe as the next step though. Good luck!

Odieds69

Hmmm

Welp i looked at the zone valve and it does have 4 wires on both valve's(main house and basement) as far at the aquastat i have no clue....i did notice however there there is a manual override on the bottem to leave it open so i left it open to see if i will have enought heat down there without having 2 zones....i know it will be cold with having copper baseboard, but if it can get it a decent temp without having 2 zones i might just leave it that way...i am figuring on getting a new boiler next year anyways since this is over 25 years old so atleast i will know if i need to do 2 zones...thank for your help, BTW are you a heating guy for homes, i live in chicago..thanks

~Warren

Glenn Harrison

Yes I am!

I am one of 12 residential HVAC tech's. Althoff Industries is a Mechanical and Electrical contractor serving the greater Chicago area. We do Residential/Commercial/Industrial HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing and piping service and install of almost any kind. Our primary office is in Crystal Lake (South McHenry County) With a Commercial Branch in Chicago.

Please feel free to contact our office to get this problem resolved, or when your ready to get the boiler replaced. And please mention how you heard of us and mention my name. I am trying to get the boss to list on "Find a Contractor" and help Dan out.


Glenn Harrison

Althoff Industries Inc.

Crystal Lake, Illinois

815-455-7000 or 800-225-2443

www.althoffind.com

kevin

Dan had done...

an article on this for B&G some years back...if you have a 007, 008 Taco or 15-42Grundfostheese have higher operating pressures and will give ypu the banging w/ zone valve at times. If you switch to a Taco 110 or B&G series 100 it will soften the blow. They have a better flow rate w/o the pressure jump. It has worked for me plenty of times. The banging is usually if you have longer runs w/ more water to gain more momentum and not want to stop w/out a fight. Good luck, kpc

tim from Reed Wright

zone valve banging

been there done that. I would recommend a White Rodgers zone valve if you are having that problem. They have a very low pressure drop across them and a slow smooth operation. Have found them to be very reliable over the years.