The right boiler Best of the Best

Will82

Had a plumber recommend the Lochinvar knight boiler KHN085. But I was also looking at Navien Combi or Rinnai Combi and a Bosch Greenstar. I know there are a lot of brands out there. But out of these or some other ones which are the Best of the best?
I really want to Combi boiler but they do not make one with a 10:1 turn down.

Rich_49

HTP , EFTC140 . Not 10:1 TDR but has performed very well in our jibs where it has been used . Wall or floor models are available , floor is best

EzzyT

I agree with @Rich

lchmb

I like the Triangle Tube..nice combi unit...

Gordy

the best boiler you can choose is the one your installer is most intimate with, can service, and get parts.

Fred

Gordy said:

the best boiler you can choose is the one your installer is most intimate with, can service, and get parts.

Hummmm, I don't know @Gordy I would only agree with that if I knew I had the best installer I could possibly get and he/she wasn't installing the cheapest product to undercut the other quotes. I'm not one for leaving the quality of a product going into my house to chance and unfortunately most HO don't engage HVAC, especially steam and hydronics Pros often enough to know that the installer is doing right by them.

Gordy

Fred said:

Gordy said:

the best boiler you can choose is the one your installer is most intimate with, can service, and get parts.

Hummmm, I don't know @Gordy I would only agree with that if I knew I had the best installer I could possibly get and he/she wasn't installing the cheapest product to undercut the other quotes. I'm not one for leaving the quality of a product going into my house to chance and unfortunately most HO don't engage HVAC, especially steam and hydronics Pros often enough to know that the installer is doing right by them.

Sooo you would choose the boiler you find best, and then try to find an installer??

Gordy

In this case the khn is recommended by installer. The question becomes does the installer know the khn.

Will82

He said he has installed a lot but I don't know how many. Truthfully I think it is oversized because the house is only 1076 ft.² But he thinks the KHN055 is too small.

njtommy

How soon are you looking to have this done? Now that you brought up Lochinvar they are supposed to be coming out with a fire tube combi boiler. I haven't seen any specs on it yet tho.

Will82

I think the reason why he thinks it is too small it's because this is the boiler in the basement right now.
Burnham model 204NS-TEI2
Input 96,000 BTU
D.O.E HTG cap 80,000BTU

Will82

Probably in the next month or two. But I was also looking at Navien NCB-150E turn down is 6:1 on 12,000 to 60,000 BTU.

Fred

Gordy said:

Fred said:

Gordy said:

the best boiler you can choose is the one your installer is most intimate with, can service, and get parts.

Hummmm, I don't know @Gordy I would only agree with that if I knew I had the best installer I could possibly get and he/she wasn't installing the cheapest product to undercut the other quotes. I'm not one for leaving the quality of a product going into my house to chance and unfortunately most HO don't engage HVAC, especially steam and hydronics Pros often enough to know that the installer is doing right by them.

Sooo you would choose the boiler you find best, and then try to find an installer??

@Gordy, I do try to do my research on the product(s) I'm interested in and try to lock down on the one I want and then I tend to look at local dealers/installers and determine if I have any history/experience with them. I also tend to look at BBB reports to see their ratings and what kinds of problems have been reported (if any). If I don't know them, I ask for references and I typically don't do business with anyone who wants their money, or any portion of it, up front. I also tend to read the installation manual and I'm one of those Pain-In-The-**** customers who likes to stand around and watch the installation process. I try not to get in the way but I'm there. ) . I don't use installers that often but I do have a tried and true Roofing contractor, HVAC Contractor and Plumbing contractor. If I need one of those jobs done, no shopping around. They get the job and they either sell/install the product I've decided on or they will get it for me. Never been a problem.

Gordy

> @Hatterasguy said:
> In this case the khn is recommended by installer. The question becomes does the installer know the khn.
>
> Define "know".

Well first would be how to apply the I/O manual of that boiler to the specific job.

BPH

Why go with the NBC150 when you could go with the NCB85 ?? Turn down is a plus and kind of like AFUE what are the parameters and conditions where these #'s were met? (guaranteed it wasn't in your mechanical room). Have you done a heat loss?? A 55000 but/h boiler for 1072 sq/ft isn't a stretch. Less natural deration or elevation that's 51 btu's/sq/ft...that's a big number.

njtommy

He could also go with the NHB boilers from Navien. Theirs a big price jump between Navien and Lochinvar.

BPH

My apologies....was thinking stand alone boiler the numbers are getting mixed up... Navien does not make a NCB150 combo boiler.however they do make an NCB180 that produces 150000 btu's with a min turn down of 14000 Btu's and 3.4 gpm at 77 degree temp rise for Domestic production.

Will82

> @BPH said:
> Why go with the NBC150 when you could go with the NCB85 ?? Turn down is a plus and kind of like AFUE what are the parameters and conditions where these #'s were met? (guaranteed it wasn't in your mechanical room). Have you done a heat loss?? A 55000 but/h boiler for 1072 sq/ft isn't a stretch. Less natural deration or elevation that's 51 btu's/sq/ft...that's a big number.

The NBC-150E with 6:1 turn down 60,000 to 12,000 so the way that I understand it is it will turn down 6:1 between 60,000 to12,000 which will work better then the NBC-180E 80,000 to 14,000 has the same turn down but I think it would be oversized for my house. So my theory is I would never get the used 60,000 to 80,000 BTU because my system can't handle it.

Will82

> @BPH said:
> My apologies....was thinking stand alone boiler the numbers are getting mixed up... Navien does not make a NCB150 combo boiler.however they do make an NCB180 that produces 150000 btu's with a min turn down of 14000 Btu's and 3.4 gpm at 77 degree temp rise for Domestic production.

The NCB-150E is a Combi unit

BPH

Ok it seems Navien has come out with another model...Based on Naviens spec sheet that is a good match for you. However the downside that others have eluded to is the consideration idomestic hw production..you are in the sub 3 gpm range..will that be Enough as well as duty hours i.e.: how many hours per year per heating/domsteic production will that unit operate at??

Will82

It looks like it is a 2.6 GPM at 77 degrees. I only have one bathroom in the house so I think it will work the only concern I have is a 60 which is really a 56 to small. I have another post on here with the specs to my house.
The right size boiler Navien 60,000 or 80,000

Zman

There are at least a dozen " best" boilers. The navion would not make my list. Partly because it is a combi.
In order to get " best of best" you need one of the best boilers, sized and installed by the best installers.

Boon

That 'best installer' part is so dang tricky. If I knew nothing else to ask a future installer, I would ask them if they perform a combustion analysis as part of the installation [or service]. If they say any variation of 'No,' then I'd keep looking. This single question seems to do more to qualify an installer than any others.

Will82

> @Zman said:
> There are at least a dozen " best" boilers. The navion would not make my list. Partly because it is a combi.
> In order to get " best of best" you need one of the best boilers, sized and installed by the best installers.

I know I need the best installer but there are a lot of plumbers that think they are the best installer. But if people had the option between a Corvette or a Ferrari I'm sure most people would pick the Ferrari. So my question is what boiler is the Ferrari.

SWEI

Will82 said:

if people had the option between a Corvette or a Ferrari I'm sure most people would pick the Ferrari.

Once they became aware of the maintenance and insurance costs on the Ferrari...

njtommy

Navien is definitely not a Ferrari but it's a good budget friendly boiler. a Ferrari may also not fit in your house do to sizing problems and lack of turn down ratio.

Will82

> @njtommy said:
> Navien is definitely not a Ferrari but it's a good budget friendly boiler. a Ferrari may also not fit in your house do to sizing problems and lack of turn down ratio.

What boiler would you put in your house if it was 1076 ft.² ?

SWEI

I'd probably choose a KHN-055 (or a KHN-085, depending on cost and DHW load.) If the budget was tight, a CDN-040. All three have minimum firing rates below 9,000 BTU/hr.

njtommy

@Will82 I currently have a Navien NCB in my house and have had it for 3 years now. With out a single problem with performance and reliability. For the price point it's a great unit.

If I where to do it all over again I would probably install a Lochinvar KHN or a straight high efficiency boiler. The Combi is nice but with Well water I get a bit of temp fluctuation and the wait for hot water is a bit slow for my likings. I just haven't installed hot water reticulation in yet. I've installed a handfull of KHN now and really like them. Plus having the ability to do floor mount is nice.

Jamie Hall

Corvette or Ferrari? No brainer: Corvette. When it needs service, I can get it at my local friendly Chevrolet dealer. Same applies to the boiler here. You might pick the very best, most sophisticated boiler there is -- but if your service person doesn't know how it install it, set it up, and service it properly you've got a problem.

Will82

I really like the KHN-055 but it is not a Combi. So I keep on going back to the Navien NCB-150E because it is a Combi. I just hope the 56,000 BTU is enough for the house since right now I have 96,000 BTU in it which I know was overkill.
Do you know when Lochinvar is coming out with their Combi model?

njtommy

The NCB-150e should be plenty for your house. As long as you have a normal size shower head where you don't need 3GPM.

Will82

I have one bathroom in my house with a 1.75 GPM Showerhead. The NBC-150e is rated at 2.6 GPM at 77f I live in Worcester Massachusetts not sure is the water temperature coming from the city.

njtommy

Your good then even at 40f supply temp your at 117f then. That's a good shower in my opinion

Zman

SWEI said:

I'd probably choose a KHN-055 (or a KHN-085, depending on cost and DHW load.) If the budget was tight, a CDN-040. All three have minimum firing rates below 9,000 BTU/hr.

This is excellent advice. Why the aversion to indirects? Is it a space issue?

I find the Corvette or Ferrari comparison intriguing.

In my mind you want to keep the boiler plant and controls as simple and serviceable as possible. It would pick a reputable product that is well supported in your region. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the installation and sizing!

To me, the upgrade should come in the comfort side of the system. That is the sports car analogy.

What kind of emitters do you have? Are you are running beat up baseboard heaters running 180 degree water? Putting the "best of the best" boiler in that system would be like putting a Ferrari engine in a Yugo.

BPH

NTI also makes a nice combo boiler...I agree a combo boiler has deficiencies but?? They serve a purpose and have proven to be a solid performer you gotta look at cost of installation, return on investment, comfort and longevity as well as availability of parts and who's installing it.
Cost of installation? Probably give it to Navien however your giving up European technology, low head hx and pump and logic controls to the Lochinvar.
Return on investment and comfort ? My opinion it's a wash they will all be quite efficient and deliver comfort.
Longevity? It's a crap shoot..I've seen high end boilers spring a leak on the fire side of the hx in 4 years, I've seen low end condensing boilers installed in less then perfect applications running after 20 years.
Availability of parts is a big deal and most importantly the person and company installing the system is huge! When you call on the night the system goes down how will they respond?

Will82

I have 70 feet of high output baseboard heat on a monoflo system. House was built in 1947 wall only have a R3 in them maybe. I remodeled half the house put R15 in the walls where it was remodeled 2x4 walls. I thought the tankless would be better than indirects but I'm not sure.

njtommy

Tankless (combi) vs indirect is a question a lot lot of people have. The only down side to the indirect is cost of install and it's 2' round floor space your losing in a small house. Not a lot of room but simple house hold items can in fact go in its place.

If your worrying about running out of hot water with an indirect you definitely won't with only having 1 shower. In fact you could possibly run a 20 something gallon indirect tank and still have plenty of hot water.

BPH

High output BB? How high per linear ft?

Zman

To give you some perspective, the most heat the emitters will put out will be somewhere around 600 btu/lf or 42,000 BTU. Any boiler with an output bigger than that is a waste.

The good news is that your home will never need that much, so you should be able to run low water temps and achieve great efficiency.

Get a great installer and a properly sized mod/con with outdoor reset.

Have you checked the find a contractor on this site?

My vote for "best of the best" would be the Lochinvar boiler and an indirect.

Think of a combi unit as an El Camino.....

BPH

Not sure you disclosed this...maybe I missed it. Based on industry standard of 480-500 btu's/ linear ft you've got just about the right amount of bb to heat your space at 180* boiler output to bb...no reason to put in a condensing boiler put in a cast iron boiler with outdoor reset and enjoy.