Anyone look through this?

Hilly

https://www.amazon.com/Toasty-Toes-Simple-Heating-Systems-ebook/dp/B01MXLQ2EW/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1479840035&sr=1-4&keywords=toasty+toes

I haven't read fully yet, but it was a free book for the holiday weekend. Might lead to some future heatinghelp support I would think.

Mark Eatherton

I have a lot of respect for the author, however, he is a big fan of simple systems (read open loop combination water heaters) for which I can not promote due to the potential of Leginonella. He does publicly acknowledge its potential, but still continues to promote their use without looking at the facts that have been researched and developed by organizations such as ASHRAE and the CDC.

This conversation has been going on for VERY long time, and it always ends up back at the same spot. Nowhere.

For those who have to comply to plumbing codes (every one) , these systems ARE in fact illegal. We are not allowed to do anything to the potable water that would change its characteristics, and create water of "questionable character". Having water sitting on an idle heating system all summer long, creating conditions that will amplify the bacteria responsible for numerous deadly diseases WILL create perfect growing conditions for the bacteria. Flushing the loops with potable water on every DHW draw will not work. Pumps on timers will not work. Scald sanitization during non heating months is a major waste of energy and can create conditions of discomfort. The amount of chlorine necessary to eradicate the bacteria (when and where used) would need to be 10 times stronger to be effective, and the piping system can't handle concentrations that high, to say nothing of its negative affect on human consumption..

If a person wants to use a "cheap" water heater, like a 30 or 40 gallon water heater as their heat source, so long as it is approved for the application, AND has the necessary heat exchangers to provide isolation of the two working fluids, I've got no problem with it (nor do the codes). But to promote the use of direct, open systems is to blatantly fly in the face of numerous respected authorities and organizations that recommend against it. For that reason alone, I can't endorse this book. Neither will the Radiant Professionals Alliance.

Adding $1,500 to the total installed cost by adding equipment necessary for isolation is cheap insurance. The energy efficiency of tank style heaters is poor at best, especially when kept at high operating temperatures.

Having had experienced Legionaires disease, and survived, I can honestly say that I would not wish Bacterial Pneumonia (common misdiagnosis) on my worst enemy.

More than glad to openly debate this with anyone (including the author) who thinks otherwise...

ME

Hilly

Through a brief skim, I did notice how dismissive of Legionnaires potential he was. I found that to be quit disturbing. It would be one thing to only briefly bring it up but to blatantly dismiss it - that I find truly troubling.

KC_Jones

I can't quite understand how this is even a debatable topic? How does one dismiss Legionnaires like it doesn't exist? It does exist, you can't debate that?! This truly boggles my mind. Working in the industrial HVAC market I can say there is a lot of frustration around this topic. People die, if you take that lightly I don't have any kind words to describe what I think of you.

I have a Brother in law who is a plumber. I got into a discussion about this topic once, he literally laughed. He thinks its funny that Legionnaires is a concern. So people dying is funny. Got it.

BobC

We had a couple of cases of legionella at the Boston P&DC while I was working there around 2006. They traced the source to a dead ended water pipe not to far from a water fountain. One of the guys was sick for years and never came back to work because of this.

It's not a serious concern till you are the one who gets a drink of the tainted water.

Bob

DanHolohan

Well said, Mark. Thanks for saying it again. There shouldn't be a need after all these years, but you know.

Hilly

With regards to the water fountain and the it's dead end pipe. Should future fixture rough-ins and potential recirc lines all be disconnected or isolated to prevent a potential contamination?

jumper

In my day a storage water heater was the cheapest & simplest small heating boiler. Providing you didn't need too hot water. And if a water heater is on a closed system won't it last?

I agree that combining DHW with HHW is a bad idea for many reasons.

Mark Eatherton

jumper said:

In my day a storage water heater was the cheapest & simplest small heating boiler. Providing you didn't need too hot water. And if a water heater is on a closed system won't it last?

I agree that combining DHW with HHW is a bad idea for many reasons.

IF it is used soley for THAT purpose only, AND is rated for the application, I have no health qualms. You're still dealing with a very large energy hog, but it's your money, burn it however makes you happy.

As for life expectancy, you'd think it might last longer due to the lack of incoming oxygen, but it also wasn't made to run for long periods of time, like it will during the winter.

As a matter of full disclosure, before I was made aware of the legionella issues, I too used a 40 gallon water heater for doing both heat and DHW. It just really didn't work due to temperature limitations. When I ripped it out to replace it with a real boiler, a bluish green slime came out of the RFH pipes, and I decided then that I'd never expose my customers or family to whatever it was that was growing in the slime.

FWIW, I actually had an outdoor rest controller in place (N/C solenoid on pipe to burner) so it was about as efficient as it could get. When I converted to a Munchkin, my fuel bills dropped an additional 30%. So, even with state of the art controls, they just aren't very efficient.

ME

ME

Mark Eatherton

BobC said:

We had a couple of cases of legionella at the Boston P&DC while I was working there around 2006. They traced the source to a dead ended water pipe not to far from a water fountain. One of the guys was sick for years and never came back to work because of this.

It's not a serious concern till you are the one who gets a drink of the tainted water.

Bob

Bob, it has to be inhaled, by a person with a compromised immune system before it turns into bacterial pneumonia, a.k.a. Legionaires Disease. A study by the CDC determined that 80% of the people they'd tested had "consumed" the bacteria with no bad effects. It's in the water. if you drink water, you are taking the bacteria in.

Areas of high incidents of illness include the misters at the local grocery store vegetable isle, shower heads, pre rinse spray heads, cooling towers, hot tubs and anywhere that the bacteria can be aerosolized and then inhaled.

When highly concentrated, it sets up in the microphages of the lungs, and manifests itself as bacterial pneumonia. Per the CDC, it is "One of the most commonly misdiagnosed diseases on the face of the Earth". Hence, underreported cases world wide.

There is some research going on that uses a copper/silver nitride to kill the bacteria, but silver is a heavy metal and banned from potable water applications. Research continues...

ME

hot_rod

Mark Eatherton said:

jumper said:

In my day a storage water heater was the cheapest & simplest small heating boiler. Providing you didn't need too hot water. And if a water heater is on a closed system won't it last?

I agree that combining DHW with HHW is a bad idea for many reasons.

IF it is used soley for THAT purpose only, AND is rated for the application, I have no health qualms. You're still dealing with a very large energy hog, but it's your money, burn it however makes you happy.

As for life expectancy, you'd think it might last longer due to the lack of incoming oxygen, but it also wasn't made to run for long periods of time, like it will during the winter.

As a matter of full disclosure, before I was made aware of the legionella issues, I too used a 40 gallon water heater for doing both heat and DHW. It just really didn't work due to temperature limitations. When I ripped it out to replace it with a real boiler, a bluish green slime came out of the RFH pipes, and I decided then that I'd never expose my customers or family to whatever it was that was growing in the slime.

FWIW, I actually had an outdoor rest controller in place (N/C solenoid on pipe to burner) so it was about as efficient as it could get. When I converted to a Munchkin, my fuel bills dropped an additional 30%. So, even with state of the art controls, they just aren't very efficient.

ME

ME

small electric water heaters are fine for some small applications, I feel.

Solid_Fuel_Man

The whole idea of open systems in general lead to problems. Now have constantly introduced fresh water and all the minerals that precipitate out and lay in a system. Inefficient equipment. Why in the world would anyone ever think any of that is a good system? Let alone drinking that water....

The ONLY application I can see is someone using an electric water heater for some small radiant or towel warmer etc. But that would be a normal closed system with an axpansion tank. Just to avoid buried Electric heating cables in favor of pipe so any heat source could be used in the future.

Taylor

Gordy

Hilly said:

Through a brief skim, I did notice how dismissive of Legionnaires potential he was. I found that to be quit disturbing. It would be one thing to only briefly bring it up but to blatantly dismiss it - that I find truly troubling.

If you have not contracted Legionella, and do not know of anyone that has. It becomes a mute point to some people.

Problem is more people have contracted it than documented, or even have realized they had it.

Get it one time things are seen in a different perspective.

Hilly

Well from now on I'm telling people I personally know somebody that contracted it.... ME... Do you know where or how you contracted it @Mark Eatherton

Mark Eatherton

Hilly said:

Well from now on I'm telling people I personally know somebody that contracted it.... ME... Do you know where or how you contracted it @Mark Eatherton

I had a 30 gallon water heater in my second home. To save fuel (LP) I'd turn the control to PILOT during the week to avoid having to relight the pilot. After a lengthy trip to Rhode Island, and came back on a plane full of coughing people. When I got back to Denver, I loaded up the wife and dogs and headed for the mountain home. Got there and went through the usual start up procedures, including turning the water heater to the ON position. My chest felt tight from the plane trip home, so I decided to get into the hot shower, and breath deep to see if I could break up the congestion. By the time I got out of the shower, I felt like I'd been run over by a truck, and thought it was probably influenza (that's what it felt like) and told the wife I didn't feel good, and suggested we pack up and go home....

I started coughing, and continued coughing into the week. Eventually, my coughing was bringing up a bloody phlegm. By that time, I was too weak to drive myself to the doctors office, so had to ask the wife to do so. The MD diagnosed it as bacterial pneumonia. I asked her if it could possibly be Legionella. She said it probably was, but that in the time it would take to get the lab results back, I could be dead. She suggested broad spectrum antibiotics, a blood test to confirm or deny the presence of Legionella and a test in 6 weeks to compare antigens. Turns out the tests came back positive for Legionella.

If I hadn't been exposed to the coughers and hackers on the plane, I might not have contracted it.

You just never know....

Now, YOU know.

ME

Mark Eatherton

small electric water heaters are fine for some small applications, I feel.


So long as it is approved for that application, the code authorities won't have a problem. However, I did see one once that had completely melted all of the insulation off of the wires to the elements. They weren't intended to be used on a constant on basis. The 220 V plug and receptacle were also showing some severe signs of melt. User beware...

ME

RayWohlfarth

Legionella has cost the lives of several veterans here in my area (Pittsburgh) They contracted it at the local VA hospital. I would never do anything which could chance one of my customers to contract it. Even a remote chance is too much.

Hilly

Thank you for sharing the detailed story Mark. I do appreciate it. A first hand story is always much more powerful. Thank you again. I was always curious - after the fact - if my bacterial pneumonia a few years ago was Legionnaires.

Harvey Ramer

Mark Eatherton said:

small electric water heaters are fine for some small applications, I feel.


So long as it is approved for that application, the code authorities won't have a problem. However, I did see one once that had completely melted all of the insulation off of the wires to the elements. They weren't intended to be used on a constant on basis. The 220 V plug and receptacle were also showing some severe signs of melt. User beware...

ME



I've seen the same thing.
A 4.4Kw element draws 18.3 amps and the internal wiring on the heater is done with 12AWG wire with a 90°c (194°F) rating on the insulation jacket. Meanwhile the heater is typically field wired with 10AWG and protected with a 30 amp breaker. With continuous duty, it only takes one thing wrong. Such as a bad connection to an element or a worn thermal switch.

Ironman

@Mark Eatherton
I wonder how many elderly that have died of pneumonia in health care and assisted living facilities have actually died of Legionella?

With few exception, almost all of these places turn the hot water down to 110* to prevent scalding and have recirc lines that are running at 95 - 100*. That's a perfect temp for Legionella breeding.

Do you know of anything being done to address this?

Solid_Fuel_Man

All the elderly and Healthcare placed I worked keep the recirc and DHW at 140+ and have individual asse1017 mixing valves at every apartment/group of fixtures. That way they can also feed higher temp water to the dishwashers which would otherwise need to use Electric booster heaters to raise water temp. Just like the ones at home do.

Taylor

Mark Eatherton

Ironman said:

@Mark Eatherton
I wonder how many elderly that have died of pneumonia in health care and assisted living facilities have actually died of Legionella?

With few exception, almost all of these places turn the hot water down to 110* to prevent scalding and have recirc lines that are running at 95 - 100*. That's a perfect temp for Legionella breeding.

Do you know of anything being done to address this?

Bob, I had a senior housing project here in Colorado that had one of these deadly systems in it. I recommended complete replacement and isolation. They recontacted the original installer, who told them I was full of BS. The manager of the property dressed me down in front of her board of directors.

They had three other buildings with conventional RFH systems in them. I asked her if she'd noticed a difference in the number of oxygen trucks serving the three buildings. Her face went pale. Her mom lived in the subject building and was on oxygen full time and had already contracted bacterial pneumonia.

I walked away from that job, but made sure the county health department was made aware of the situation. The building department then banned open systems from being installed.

THEY ARE ALREADY ILLEGAL. It just needs to be enforced. Problem is, the plumbing inspectors who are responsible for protecting the potable water, are not the same inspectors (mechanical) who are reviewing and approving the installations of these systems. Our job of education will never end...

Soap box is now free...

ME

Mark Eatherton

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

All the elderly and Healthcare placed I worked keep the recirc and DHW at 140+ and have individual asse1017 mixing valves at every apartment/group of fixtures. That way they can also feed higher temp water to the dishwashers which would otherwise need to use Electric booster heaters to raise water temp. Just like the ones at home do.



Taylor

Taylor,

Not always the case with older facilities that don't have POU protection. In new, properly designed and installed systems, this is a correct statement, but in many existing cases, not true.

Senior citizens typically have compromised immune systems. When they die of pneumonia, no one bothers to do an autopsy. "She was 86 years old, and had had a good long life. Why would we want to do an autopsy..." Most commonly misdiagnosed disease IN THE WORLD...

Proceed with knowledge and caution.

ME

Ironman

It seems to me that if we could better educate the HEALTH INSPECTORS who visit these facilities on a regular basis, that would accomplish even more good than training the plumbing/mechanical inspectors. I'm not minimizing them, but health inspectors could easily be trained to look for things that breed Legionella and require that they be addressed promptly. The plumbing/mechanical inspectors never see the building again after a CO is issued; the health inspector is there on a regular ongoing basis.

PinkTavo

@Mark Eatherton Mark, I work in designing commercial temperature controls (in Denver, by the way) and we have had two large "loft' projects (one Downtown and one near Old Elitches) that combine domestic and heating water. They both use what are basically large water heaters...that must be certified as boilers. I can't remember the brand, but I think you probably know the type I mean. One project uses a storage tank that they (the engineer) calls for being 140 DEGF to protect against Legionella. The other project; a timer is used to open all of the Fan-Coil valves in the apartments to purge the stale water in the off-heating season to prevent Legionella. I was very surprised to see these systems. In my opinion they just wanted to save money rather than install a proper, separated, system. Both use DCW to mix down the DHW at the units thru a 3-way thermostatic valve, so there is a place for cross-contamination there too.

hot_rod

Harvey Ramer said:

Mark Eatherton said:

small electric water heaters are fine for some small applications, I feel.

So long as it is approved for that application, the code authorities won't have a problem. However, I did see one once that had completely melted all of the insulation off of the wires to the elements. They weren't intended to be used on a constant on basis. The 220 V plug and receptacle were also showing some severe signs of melt. User beware...

ME



I've seen the same thing.
A 4.4Kw element draws 18.3 amps and the internal wiring on the heater is done with 12AWG wire with a 90°c (194°F) rating on the insulation jacket. Meanwhile the heater is typically field wired with 10AWG and protected with a 30 amp breaker. With continuous duty, it only takes one thing wrong. Such as a bad connection to an element or a worn thermal switch.

And they get UL listing on the appliance.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Heating is always considered continuous duty, there for anything continuous must be rated 125% of the full load rating in the electrical field. Most real heating appliances have 105 or 125 degrees C wire. I never liked the idea of cord and plug connected anything that is rated continuous duty, heating especially.

Taylor

hot_rod

Stoves are the same way. I have a 40 A breaker on my stove and 12 gauge wire to the burners and oven element.

ratio

Yes. The NEC requires field work to be sized for the pathological load, but manufactured equipment can be sized for whatever load the engineer expects. I wish I had a better opinion of our engineering caste as a whole.

SWEI

You own what you build. The manufacturer has to get their UL listing. We just have to keep our own wires from burning up.

BobC

believe me the bean counters do not listen to the engineer and they often have the final say in a large company. They will use the cheapest piece of crap to save a penny.

If things got to silly at the last place I worked I would put a note into the record detailing the problem and stating the name of the individual who was ignoring my detailed explanation about why part x can't be substituted for the proper part.

I was threatened with removal more than once when they found out what I had done. I told them I'd be happy to explain it to the court of inquiry when it came up - at that point the stared at me for a minute and backed out the door. I had one manager removed for trying to pursue the matter, after that things got real quiet. I became known as the man who knew where all the bodies were buried

Bob