Dad wants a torch

ChrisJ

I need recommendations on a torch for my dad.
He didn't care for my Turbotorch with the swirl tips, but wanted something simpler and smaller for sweating pipe, bending steel etc automotive etc.

He has a few dirt cheap propane torches but they kinda suck and he wants an upgrade.

He mentioned the small MC tank torch his father had many years ago.

Any ideas?
I'm thinking maybe a Turbotorch sof-flame kit for MC (CGA 200).
He wanted a decent length hose, not something tiny like my little Bernzomatic MAPP cheap torch.

ChrisJ

This actually looks pretty decent.
Has anyone used one?


PL-DLXPT Torch Kit Swirl, MAP-Pro/LP Gas, Deluxe Portable Torch Kit, DOT,TC Certified

http://victortechnologies.com/turbotorch/products/detailProduct.html?prodID=0386-1397


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002I0B19E/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687502&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0076ZVL64&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=060J5YDBFHN887TPH9N9

SWEI

That's a great little kit, though it does have swirl tips. They essentially throw in a #3 self-lighting tip and a bag for about the price of the torch. Note that the hose it includes is specific to the CGA-600 (disposable cylinder) regulator and does not fit CGA-510 (bulk cylinder) regulators. I prefer the Uniweld bulk regulator to the TurboTorch version -- the design sits better on the cylinder and it includes a pressure gauge.

I'm inclined to agree with @Stephen Minnich that sweating copper is actually easier with LPG than it is with propylene (aka MAP-Pro.)

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

That's a great little kit, though it does have swirl tips. They essentially throw in a #3 self-lighting tip and a bag for about the price of the torch. Note that the hose it includes is specific to the CGA-600 (disposable cylinder) regulator and does not fit CGA-510 (bulk cylinder) regulators. I prefer the Uniweld bulk regulator to the TurboTorch version -- the design sits better on the cylinder and it includes a pressure gauge.

I'm inclined to agree with @Stephen Minnich that sweating copper is actually easier with LPG than it is with propylene (aka MAP-Pro.)

Why do you think that is?

SWEI

At least with copper to copper joints, the lower flame temp seems less prone to burning of water-based fluxes.

Get him a roll of Bridgit (or SB8) while you're at it. I have found 3/32" makes cleaner joints on 1/2" - 1" pipe than the 1/8" stuff most places keep on the shelf.

ChrisJ

ron said:

i got the TX500 last summer, and other than it having a problem staying lit I was able to finish my project and then returned it for replacement and that has been fine. for the cost and getting two tips it's hard to beat. the large tip using propane i was able to heat the O2 sensor on my truck cherry red to remove it... i might have used my old propane torch as a second heat source i don't remember. acetylene i think is the nicest for sweating copper but the rig is expensive and hard to justify if you don't use it a lot.
i've never had good luck with propane or mapp in most metal work because not enough heat, for that i go to my portable oxy-acetylene kit having the small MC tank 8c.f. and corresponding O2 tank. you can get these kits at a decent price but i would scout your area for aceteylene and O2 refills. I get raped when i need mine refilled... and i mean raped!

I just got a price of around $38-40 to swap my B tank.
Doesn't seem too bad, does it?

I still have no idea how long these tanks last, but I assume a B tank should last quite a while, no?

SWEI

$13.74 to fill a 6.6# propylene cylinder (with the approximate BTU content of three B-tanks.) Aluminum cylinder weighs 14 pounds when full and is easily one-handed on a ladder.

Approximate target heats:

• air/LPG 1,750°F
  
• air/propylene 2,400°F
  
• air/acetylene 2,700°F

Oxy/fuel is a completely different animal. Acetylene is pretty much mandatory for welding, but propylene cuts better.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

$13.74 to fill a 6.6# propylene cylinder (with the approximate BTU content of three B-tanks.) Aluminum cylinder weighs 14 pounds when full and is easily one-handed on a ladder.

Approximate target heats:

• air/LPG 1,750°F
  
• air/propylene 2,400°F
  
• air/acetylene 2,700°F

Oxy/fuel is a completely different animal. Acetylene is pretty much mandatory for welding, but propylene cuts better.

So basically, when it comes to heat Acetylene is king. If you want a hot, small flame it's the way to go.

When it comes to cheap and convenient LPG is king.

Though IMO, air/acetylene is more convenient than oxy/LPG for virtually the same temperature.

I'll need to talk to my dad.
As has been said, you don't need high heat for soft soldering and maybe it even makes things ahrder. Though, there have been times I wanted a smaller flame like in a cramped space.

Thanks for posting that pricing, I was having a hard time figuring out the cost of acetylene vs other fuels.

SWEI

Acetylene is definitely hottest, but it comes with some baggage. Withdrawal rates are low, especially in cold weather. It's by far the most likely to have something bad happen. The LEL/HEL range is mind boggling.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

Acetylene is definitely hottest, but it comes with some baggage. Withdrawal rates are low, especially in cold weather. It's by far the most likely to have something bad happen. The LEL/HEL range is mind boggling.

I just looked it up our of curiosity.
The refrigerant I use has a LEL of 5% and a UEL of 23% which I've always understood makes it fairly dangerous to work with.

However, acetylene takes it up a bar with 2.5 - 100%.

I knew there was a reason I treat my torch so well.

SWEI

I still remember the "acetylene lecture" from the first year of high school metal shop. A truly amazing material, but one which demands respect.

Propylene (MAP/Pro) does burn a few percent cooler in air, with flammability limits of 2% - 11.1%. It also costs quite a bit less, even if you're buying disposable cylinders. The ability to use the same tips and regulators as LPG, and the fact that you can find it off the shelf in any hardware store are worth something as well.

We stopped cutting with oxy/acetylene about a week after we got our first plasma cutter.

hot_rod

What exactly does Dad want to do with the torch? You mentioned bending steel? Depending on how thick he may want oxy/actylene for getting steel red hot, quickly.

cutter

Ron, That oxygen/acetylene rig you posted from photo bucket, that acetylene cylinder will cost around $80.00 dollars to fill and the oxygen tank will cost $35.00 to get filled or exchanged, plus a $7.00 hazard fee. at least that is the cost in Minnesota where I live.
It does take 7 hours to fill an acetylene cylinder and an acetylene cylinder should not be emptied faster than one seventh of it's capacity per hour. Otherwise like you said acetone will leave the cylinder. The acetone is not explosive leaving the cylinder, it will give the flame a little different look, not much though. I have emptied several cylinders in maybe 4 hours or a little less using a #15 tip, and that was the cylinder larger that the photo bucket photo. I should have connected two or more cylinders together but we did not have the lines and fittings. I would post a picture of two cylinders plumbed together, but for some reason I have lost the option of posting pictures.
The reason acetylene should not be used above 15 psi is because it starts to becomes unstable at that pressure because there is not any acetone to stabilize it after the acetylene leaves the cylinder.
Smith claims to have had acetylene blow up at 18 psi re-compressed after leaving the cylinder. and you can be pretty much assured it will blow at 28 psi re-compressed without acetone.
Smith used to go around and put on safety classes for oxygen/acetylene back in the 70's and maybe later, I think they have a video now.
When we high lined cylinders from ship to ship under way at sea we would let the acetylene cylinder stand vertical for 24 hours before use. You might be able to use them sooner, the 24 hours may have just been Navy policy. I personally still use the 24 hour rule.
I have used an Oxygen/acetylene torch in every position possible without any problems, so acetylene should be as versatile as propane
And like you said oxygen/acetylene can be dangerous, treat it with respect.

ChrisJ

hot rod said:

What exactly does Dad want to do with the torch? You mentioned bending steel? Depending on how thick he may want oxy/actylene for getting steel red hot, quickly.

I called him last night and asked if he was 100% sure he didn't want oxy/acetylene and he said absolutely positive.

He was a union carpenter for 40 years and has used such setups many times for cutting steel. He said he doesn't want to have to deal with an O2 tank and that a decent air/acetylene torch will be fine.

Personally, part of me wishes I had went with an oxy/acetylene setup instead of the swirl tip setup because it'd be quieter and I could do more with it.


This is what it looks like he wants to go with,
WSF-3 Torch Kit Sof-Flame for MC, comes with S-4 tip and I'm going to get him an S-6 tip just in case he's working with something that needs more heat.

I need to get him the tote, tank key, tank and igniter as well.

Torch in photo is a swirltip, but the picture was to give him an idea of what the tote and general setup would look like.





Anyone know why prices for acetylene seem to vary so much from area to area? Airgas wants around $40 to swap a B tank here in NJ and yet they want $80 in Minnesota?!

hot_rod

When I'm doing shop project I use this old Prescolite torch on acetylene. It doesn't scream like the swirl tip types and is easier to heat copper slowly and evenly. It's good for working on art projects and thin sheet copper.

If he wants to work steel, you could always have the O2 on standby and switch torches and hose kits. It is hard to find a one torch does all type.

I think the larger the tank, the less $$ for acetylene, you could step up to an MC size, that will last me for years in the shop.




If he likes cutting metals and plastics a plasma cutter is an amazing tool to own. You need compressed air, of course.

cutter

Chrisj asked: Anyone know why prices for acetylene seem to vary so much from area to area? Airgas wants around $40 to swap a B tank here in NJ and yet they want $80 in Minnesota?!

As Ron said above, The cylinder I was referring too was the cylinders on what looked like a Harper cart that Ron posted from photo bucket. The acetylene cylinder looked like it could be a #4 on Ron's post above. On one of my receipts they have #4 describing my acetylene cylinder size. My oxygen cylinder is a 125 cubic foot size. That is also what appears to be in the photo bucket picture. Oxygen/acetylene rig is expensive. Different suppliers charge differently. Here that 125 cubic foot oxygen cylinder costs $225 and I would bet the #4 acetylene would be as much or close. Also some welding supply'y will then add on a yearly test charge of $25 or so no matter how many cylinder, if any that you use per year. Some only give you a five year lease with yearly charges no matter how many cylinders you use, if any. A good regulator set (not Chinese) could cost around $250.00. Add the price of gas and you are around 8 to 9 hundred dollars. I forgot you also need a cart, now you could be over $900.00.
I could not afford a Harper so I built my own. (not really) My first cart was sort of crude, Later when I had access to metal working equipment I put together a pretty nice cart.

Has the picture posting method been changed, If I could I would post a picture of my cart.

That last #5 300 cubic foot cylinder looks to be the size I was emptying out in 4 hours or less. On that job I was bending 7/8 round stock, with a little heat they bend a little easier.

ChrisJ

Ah I see.
For some reason I assumed B tank, not sure why I did that. That #4 is a good size tank, I bet that goes a long way?

I asked my dad if he's 100% sure he wants MC as they want $30 to fill an MC, or $40 for B tank, seems a bit absurd. He's 100% sure, he says he doesn't use it enough to warrant anything bigger, he just wants it there for when he does need it and he wants it portable.

All well.
Personally, I like the size of the B tank. It's easy to carry and seems readily available at a really good price.