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NOT pumping away, while waiting for my books... sketchup w/ parts

need help w/ location of inline air separator and compression tanks...

I've got some conflicting advise pertaining to the proper location of the air separator...

I've located it (on paper) on the outfeed line of the boiler (hottest water loses most air)

Yet the compression tanks are supposed to be located at the suction side of the circulator (B & G "pump away" philosophy) I can't do that w/ the LK810 loading unit ,as it can't be mounted on the outfeed of the boiler.

Here's what I come up with as an alternative... problems? critique?
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Comments

  • buglebugle Posts: 9
    Sketchup #2

    I'm trying to get the air separator closer to the expansion (compression) tanks ... is there any problem mounting the C3 circulator almost 15' away from the boiler? Anything weird here?
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  • WeezboWeezbo Posts: 6,230Member ✭✭✭
    i see this yet i have to zoom...

    there is a free programm that TACO has available , it is helpful in that you can add parts and pieces , add numbers, and it will point out minor technicalities until the issues resolve . you can import and export things into the mix also.

    just a thought more if you had the boiler in one corner the tanks in another ,the radiant/hydronic emitters in another and the expansion tanks in another it would make it easier to describe piping arrangements , circ placements , check valve placement , mixer s and other components and or controls to help see things .

    then guys here might say, draw a line from a to b drop in a three way mixer place check here and go to inlet of tank 1 and install t to supply of emitter branch ahead of mixed injection pump adding a check and t with the take off going back both to the tank with a check and back to the supply of the boiler with zone valve on that line.

    T'eed into the riser . to allow by pass of the tanks for heat supply through emitter mixed injection , in the event or necessity of tank repair or maintenance .

    thus providing you with "paths" and reasoning and solution or resolutions .

    then you would have choices to make . do i like the injection mixing or the 4 way mixer better , do i like the step down mix ahead of the both of them for running the system without water from the tanks , that sorta thing.

    i have to zoom . don't worry someone else will be here soon :)

    just a suggestion though.

    *~//: )
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  • ZmanZman Posts: 2,334Member ✭✭✭
    2 cents

    I don't see you having an air removal problem. The 500 gallon tanks will make a fine air removal system all by themselves.

    By the same token the location of the expansion tank to the boiler circulator is not a huge deal. It is a very low head circ and that side is really unlikely to have issues.

    I would treat the 500 gallon tanks as giant hydrolic separators. The boiler would pass water through the tanks on one side and the radiator loop would pass through on the other. This would also prevent water from circulating through the wood boiler when it not firing.

    I would put the  expansion tanks on the radiator side, between the tanks and the circulator intake.

    Check out this www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/.../idronics_10_us.pdf‎

    Page 34 has some drawings that are similar to what I am talking about.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
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  • buglebugle Posts: 9
    Books came!!!

    I've redone the drawing... getting rid of the LK810 Loading unit and instead put the pump ( a cast iron Grundfos) where it belongs. I was able to do this using a DanFoss thermic 3way valve with a 140 deg element on the return line to the boiler... Comments?
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  • i'd piped

    I'd piped with pri/sec set up so the mixing valve have it own pump on the mixed outlet..
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  • Steamfitter66Steamfitter66 Posts: 117Member
    Tarms are great

    Pipe your air relief off the storage tanks [ at the top piping connection] to the expansion tanks as thats were 90% of your air water separation will occur and you could actually run out of air if you vent it off.

    I would use alpha pumps as you have a very low head system and could cut your electrical use by 75%

    I also agree that you should install the boiler pump between the mixing valve outlet and the boiler.

    you dont need an air separator if your storage tank hot connection is at the high point in the piping.

    Make sure you have enough expansion tank for 60* to 180-210* temp swing.

    A vacuum breaker would protect your storage tanks from collapse if your expansion tanks become waterlogged and the feeder was off. Ive seen it happen in a building with stationary engineers.
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  • buglebugle Posts: 9
    confused

    steamfitter said... "Tarms are great

    Pipe your air relief off the storage tanks [ at the top piping connection] to the expansion tanks as thats were 90% of your air water separation will occur and you could actually run out of air if you vent it off. "



    Remove the autovents from the storage? I'll have to raise the compression tanks about a foot to get them above the storage tanks so that the bubbles can rise...



    Steamfitter then said... "I would use alpha pumps as you have a very low head system and could cut your electrical use by 75%

    I also agree that you should install the boiler pump between the mixing valve outlet and the boiler. "



    On the return line??? then as the return water gets up to temp I'll be pumping toward the compression tanks??? huh?



    "you dont need an air separator if your storage tank hot connection is at the high point in the piping.

    Make sure you have enough expansion tank for 60* to 180-210* temp swing."



    I'm figuring ... 1200 gallons x .0351 (worst case 40*-200*) = 42.12 gallons .... I've got 57 x 2 .... 114 gallons.





    "A vacuum breaker would protect your storage tanks from collapse if your expansion tanks become waterlogged and the feeder was off. Ive seen it happen in a building with stationary engineers." good to know!
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  • Steamfitter66Steamfitter66 Posts: 117Member
    yes

    between the mixing valve and the boiler. Again you have a low head pumping system. Collect your air at the storage tank hot nozzle and pump away from mixing valve you wont be able to air lock the pump if boiler outlet to tank is not trapped and rises in elevation towards the tank.

    Careful piping will make your system simple and efficient.

    What is the water temp needed by the radiation?

    What type of backup heat do you have?

    I apologize as your expansion tank calcs are good.
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  • Steamfitter66Steamfitter66 Posts: 117Member
    edited November 2013
    pumping away is not an unbreakable rule

    And you will be pumping away on your house piping.

    when you install mixing valves they become what you pump away from to ensure proper operation.
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  • buglebugle Posts: 9
    edited November 2013
    this?

    like this in blue?



    We have 5 cast iron radiators to be installed upstairs ... the boiler and tanks are in the basement/shop that has 12' ceiling height... 4 rads are 12' above boiler, one is 22' above boiler (very tall gothic arch house)



    Backup heat is a jotul parlor stove, and a 36" Rumford fireplace.
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  • Steamfitter66Steamfitter66 Posts: 117Member
    I like it

    You can use the air separator if you like but the storage tanks are the best air separators you can have.

    Watch piping layout and elevations to prevent trapping air.



    If you have standing or baseboard cast iron you will need to mix or you will have a hard time maintaining constant space temp.
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  • buglebugle Posts: 9
    raise the compression tanks above storage

    I've got to raise my compression tanks up to get a air control line from the storage tanks sloped up a minimum 1" in 5'. I've got room, heave ho! The automag is an option I probably won't do as I have a 600 watt UPS to run the circulator in the event of power loss. (happens all the time here in the Endless Mtns, PA)
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  • Steamfitter66Steamfitter66 Posts: 117Member
    Use the alpha pumps

    a 600w ups wont last long running the tarms combustion fan and the 2 58s. 58s are real efficient if you need 10 gpm at 10' head. not so much in 1st gear. If you have your heat load and radiation size then pump sizing is a breeze.

    I dont think you need the automag or the IAS.

    come off the top of the tank hot port with a full size tee and run to your expansion tanks.
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  • buglebugle Posts: 9
    IAS

    B & G IAS ... I've already bought one... AND can't return it. (1 1/4 size only comes with a 1/8" NPT on the top, I drilled it and tapped to 3/4" npt, ... its goin' somewhere!

    I haven't done any of the math for the home radiation yet... just getting the boiler and tanks talking friendly together first. The boiler is an old (but happy) Tarm MB30, no fans, just a couple honeywell aquastats.
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  • Steamfitter66Steamfitter66 Posts: 117Member
    Project order...

    Heat loss and load calc

    Radiation design

    Boiler selection

    Piping design

    Control design

    Purchase materials.



    Things change as you alter the design making it very important to complete the design phase before purchasing any material.

    I understand that when you have an opportunity to acquire an expensive device cheaply you do so, but I advise against ordering any material till you complete the entire design phase if possible.

    Plan your work and work your plan.
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  • buglebugle Posts: 9
    design

    Sure if you know what you're doing! I'm learning... just trying to not get into too much danger at this point! This winter, I hope to get the boiler/ tanks warmed up w/ one radiator in the shop as I get some more knowledge soaked up. The "pumping away" book has helped with some conceptual stuff and made me more confident ... but its still all so variable to the particular home (mine isn't even insulated yet.) Its been a slow process with this home... little at a time, inch by inch, Just got the flue lined last week. hope to boil some water by 2014

    Thanks for your truly valued input.
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  • Steamfitter66Steamfitter66 Posts: 117Member
    Your welcome

    Its even more true if your learning. You know what you insulation will be so do the heat loss calc.

    then design

    then purchase

    it eliminates costly mistakes
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  • buglebugle Posts: 9
    Heat loss calcs

    Ok... So I'm going to cross check this result with another program (rescheck?)



    figuring 7deg coldest day , and 5800 heating degree days

    Summary Outputs

    35914 BTU/hr Design Loss



    I've got 5 rococo cast iron radiators total 34625 btu

    32" x 9" x 16 sections 11024 btu

    32 x 9 x11 7579 btu

    32 x 9 x 9 6201 btu

    26" x 9 " x 13 sections 5551 btu

    26 x 9 x 10 4270 btu



    Plus I'm pretty sure those storage tanks are going to emit some btus up into the house no matter how well they're insulated. and there's always the parlor stove if things get much worse than 7 degrees... eh?
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  • Steamfitter66Steamfitter66 Posts: 117Member
    Include

    your basement in the heat loss calculation.
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