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New setup mockup

Hello all, it's me again.



I know some of you are probably tired of hearing about my intentions instead of actions, but I am just about to do the install. I have designed my hopeful setup in a 3D modeling software to help me better visualize how it will all be put together and assist with assembly. I have uploaded a video of an overview of the setup (seen here) and added a few of the screen caps to this post, also see this link for better resolution. Due to tight quarters, I had to make the most of what I had and hopefully you friendly and knowledgeable folks can point out a few easier or more efficient way to do this. For clarity, the copper/pink is all 1" copper line, while the blue is either 3/4 or 1/2". Since Burnham supplies the boiler loop pump, I am really only waiting on the sizing of the pump for the HWH and the system pump, but they're very close in physical sizing that I could mock them up in my model. Here's a link to the higher resolution mockups and plans here.



Refresher: replacing oil-fired combi boiler, cast iron recessed rads on main living floor, cast iron bases in basement, currently all on one zone, combined single loop. Installing new Burnham Alpine 080 w/50gal indirect. Currently setup for single zone, I will be adding the indirect tank and eventually another zone or 2. Roughly 72K heat loss calc, with poor shell criteria (slider windows, poor insulation in attic, etc.), hopeful to fix that over time. Northeastern NJ, see floor plans also attached.



I have followed Burnham's "Near Boiler Piping - Heating Plus Indirect Water Heater" schematic from the Alpine manual, and I think I have all of their specified components included in my mockup. In a previous thread, I had used an example that an HVAC specialist and shown me, but using @BadgerBoilerMN's criticism of overpumping, I decided to go with a system circulator with zone valves as opposed to pumps for each zone (especially since I currently will only have a single zone). I've shown a few Webstone flanges and other Webstone valves since I'm tight on space; while they're not price friendly, they do save me on valuable space.



As always, your comments and criticisms are welcome.
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Comments

  • Notes

    1) install a bypass around your fill valve for power purging.



    2) I see that you want to install purge valves at the end of your returns.  An easier way is to install a purge assembly.  The piping is: boiler-hose bibb-ball valve-air eliminator with fill valve assembly-pump.  You connect a hose to the hose bibb, close the ball valve, open the bypass around your fill valve and open one zone at a time.  It purges everything; pumps, radiators, indirect, boiler........
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
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  • ZmanZman Posts: 2,206Member ✭✭✭
    Why Alpine

    The alpine has a very high head loss. because of the head loss you have to pipe your system primary secondary and use large circulators.

    If you go with a firetube boiler like the Lochinvar WHN 85, you won't need primary/secondary. You could have a smaller circ with a check valve for DHW and a small circ with a check valve for heating. If you add a zone just add another circ. You would need no zone valves and much less piping and hardware.

    It would be similar to the piping on page 45 of the manual. http://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/WH-I-O-Rev%20M.pdf



    Carl
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 356Member ✭✭
    Saving Space

    Everyone wants the heating system to take up the least amount of space.
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    thank you all

    @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

    1) install a bypass around your fill valve for power purging.



    2) I see that you want to install purge valves at the end of your returns. An easier way is to install a purge assembly. The piping is: boiler-hose bibb-ball valve-air eliminator with fill valve assembly-pump. You connect a hose to the hose bibb, close the ball valve, open the bypass around your fill valve and open one zone at a time. It purges everything; pumps, radiators, indirect, boiler.




    excellent suggestion and I will do exactly that. eliminating air is a concern of mine, I thought adding more valves would handle it, but it seems your suggestion does just that.



    @R Mannino

    Everyone wants the heating system to take up the least amount of space.




    Man that's tight, very well done. Do you have any closer shots of this setup? Maybe I can rebuild my mock-up similar to yours by copying it...if you don't mind, that is.



    @Zman

    The alpine has a very high head loss. because of the head loss you have to pipe your system primary secondary and use large circulators. If you go with a firetube boiler like the Lochinvar WHN 85, you won't need primary/secondary.




    I don't have a real hard answer as to why Burnham, other than a few co-workers had their newly built homes with Burnhams installed. They've been satisfied, but I am open to changing if the Lochinvar runs more efficient. I think I may be back to the drawing table
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  • Aaron_in_MaineAaron_in_Maine Posts: 145Member
    edited October 2013
    Tight

    You have one of the best shoe horns in the business. Mannino
    Post edited by Aaron_in_Maine on
    Aaron Hamilton Heating
    ahheating@ yahoo.com
    (207)229-7717
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 356Member ✭✭
    Zone Valves

    use less space than circulators.



    PM me and I'll email you more pics, I don't mind.





    Thanks, Aaron but Ron Jr. is the King!
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    Lochinvar setup

    @Zman



    your description indicates I should look at page 45 (attached) for a setup that eliminates the primary/secondary and also eliminates zone valves. However looking at page 45, I'm seeing zone valves and is titled "Single Boiler - Full Flow - Single Temperature - Zone with Zone Valves - DHW Priority"



    If you could be so kind, could you please clarify, or maybe I'm just reading it incorrectly.
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    copycat

    For those following at home, I have used @R Mannino's fine work and copied essentially his layout, including switching from an Burnham Alpine to a Viessmann Vitodens 100.



    A video of it can be seen here: http://youtu.be/zBf6-09JTiA

    and still shots can be seen here: http://goo.gl/6k59AL



    Thank you for the pointers again Ron, you've been a tremendous help and I hope you don't mind me letting others know. Thanks to anyone else who might want to chime it.
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  • hot rodhot rod Posts: 3,691Member ✭✭✭
    Fill valve

    Consider the Autofill valve from Caleffi it fills at 5 gpm with 30 psi or higher inlet pressure. No need to build a loop around it or flip a fast fill lever set the dial for the fill pressure you need and purge away.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    fill valve sounds like an idea

    @hot rod



    great suggestion, thanks
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  • StekayStekay Posts: 31Member
    Saving Space

    Ron's photo is from the install he did at my home just this past Monday. If you need better photo's I'll try to provide them, but as tight as the install is, it's not that easy.

    And thanks to the whole crew at Technical Heating
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    edited October 2013
    I'd appreciate additional photos

    @Stekay



    Thanks for the offer, I'd love to have a few more shots of the setup. Ron was kind enough to share some, but if you have others, I'd love to see them. The more the merrier, as I can now have another option for a setup other than the Burnham and the Viessmann. Ron explained his shot was from his phone, so it's a bit blurry, but if you were to share a few that were higher res, it would help me ton.
    Post edited by cyrus_pinkney on
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 356Member ✭✭
    Thanks Steve

    My pleasure
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  • StekayStekay Posts: 31Member
    additional photos

    OK, i never said I was a photographer. Hope these help. Ron painted the black pipe black & the fittings grey. A really nice touch, and an example of pride and professionalism.
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  • StekayStekay Posts: 31Member
    additional photos

    1 more
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    edited October 2013
    professional indeed

    those are helpful, but I'm missing some information, a few more angles would help me tremendously. I don't think you have to be as close to the setup, just a bit closer than Ron was and a little back from your second (below) photo so I could see how they all tie together. Thanks so much. If you wanted to PM me with the photos, I don't mind.



    I may be more comfortable with the TriangleTube setup, it seems a lot more clearer in the manual and their interface seems to be much more user friendly. I just can't build it until I see how it's been done on your installation, I'm just going to try to copy it component for component.
    Post edited by cyrus_pinkney on
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  • StekayStekay Posts: 31Member
    photos

    Some reference: P/S obviously. 3 returns through zone valves on the right into horizontal header. DHW return into same header through shutoff valve on the left of those into vertical p/s header. Turquoise circ. is adjustable boiler primary. Upper circ. is Grundfos Alpha variable spd. for zones.

    The TT is a 60 so no internal pump.
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    edited October 2013
    thanks for the help

    For all those who have been dropping in and helping, I just wanted to share my appreciation once again. I have ordered my boiler and its applicable components and plan on doing my install this weekend. I have updated my final design mock-up and it can be seen here --- http://youtu.be/cH-x5UsCuFA



    It turns out I underestimated how much space I do have to complete the install. I've seen far tighter installs, and some like @R Maninno are near magicians when making them fit into really tight quarters. I have the benefit of a some space, allowing me to follow Burnham's specs very closely, the only difference being the substitution of a Spirovent instead of an air scoop.



    For clarity, I have not included the indirect tank in the video. Also, the orange/red piping is 1-1/4" copper, the copper/pink is 1" copper, and the blue is 1/2" copper.



    I will post some photos once I get her up and running...god willing. Wish me luck!
    Post edited by cyrus_pinkney on
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 356Member ✭✭
    Good Luck Anthony!!

    I hope your successful!
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    thanks R Mannino

    you certainly have that 4'x8' install down to a science!
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 356Member ✭✭
    Thanks Anthony

    but not by my choice, it's always the customers.
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  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Posts: 24Member
    edited October 2013
    SUCCESS!!!!!

    We have heat!!!!



    Thank you all for your generous knowledge and sharing your opinions throughout this process. I realize I probably overthought a lot of this, but I'm happy that in the end it is up and running. As @R Mannino told me, sometimes you just have to do it to know it works. Thanks again Ron.



    I'll share some photos once I get some time (and clean up some of the non-professional looking elements).
    Post edited by cyrus_pinkney on
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  • R ManninoR Mannino Posts: 356Member ✭✭
    Don't

    make us wait too long for the photo's Anthony!
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