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Trinity 150 with boilermate issues

RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
Hi, I have a trinity 150 boiler with boilermate dhw that was installed back in 2007. We've had very cold weather the past week and I have been noticing issues with the system. The dhw is run through an auxiliary circuit that cuts the main circulator out in the loop, and is installed just before the main loop circulator. The dhw then feeds back into the main loop about 6" past the T that feeds the circulators for the baseboard heat and 3" above the return line for the baseboard circulators. When the dhw is running it cuts the main circulator but not any of the zone circulators. So the boiler seems to run continuously and not get upto temp if dhw is calling and zone pumps are still running. I'm wondering if there should be a check valve just before where the dhw T's back into the loop. Could the zone circulators be circulating the dhw through the baseboard before it reaches the boiler since the is one circulator running the boilermate and 4 circulators calling for heat all within an 7" section of the main loop? I've been getting ER6 on the trinity panel which I believe is an ignition or flow problem. Could the zone circulators be starving the boiler of flow when the dhw is running and the maine loop circulator is off, but the zone circulators are still calling.when the dhw is turned down down and stopped the auxiliary, the main turns back on and can hear rushing water like a toilet flushing. The system then seem to run fine but take a long time to recover due to the down time from the dhw seizing the flow.
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Comments

  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    More pics

    More pics
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  • JStarJStar Posts: 2,399Member ✭✭✭
    Heat

    It looks like the heating circulators are pumping out of the return. When the DHW circulator comes in, you have one pump moving water out of the supply, and 5 pumps out of the return. There's your flow problem.
    - Joe Starosielec
    732-494-4357
    j.star@thatcherhvac.com
    http://thatcherhvac.com
    http://facebook.com/thatcherhvac

    Guaranteed performance. Guaranteed energy savings.
    Serving all of NJ, NYC, Southern NY State, and eastern PA.
    Consultation anywhere.
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Flow issue

    So should the zone circulators be shutting off with the main loop circulator when the dhw come on? What about a check valve before the dhw return but after the zone heating return?
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Flow issue

    Would there be any disadvantage to hook the dhw up as just another zone instead of an aux that bypasses the main circulator
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  • JStarJStar Posts: 2,399Member ✭✭✭
    Dhw

    The dhw demand needs a way to shut off ALL circulators in order to maintain proper recovery rates. Check valves or flow controls are required to prevent ghost flow when any one circulator shuts down.
    - Joe Starosielec
    732-494-4357
    j.star@thatcherhvac.com
    http://thatcherhvac.com
    http://facebook.com/thatcherhvac

    Guaranteed performance. Guaranteed energy savings.
    Serving all of NJ, NYC, Southern NY State, and eastern PA.
    Consultation anywhere.
    · ·
  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Check valve

    With a check valve before the dhw return but after the zone return wouldn't that allow the zone circulators to continue running to pull any remaining heat out of the water in the lines while the dhw was running. I'm thinking the zone circulators return are mixing the dhw return and giving sporadic temps to the boiler. Could or should there be a check valve? Is there a way of shutting all other circulators down or do I need some sort of controller?
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  • PlumdogPlumdog Posts: 873Member
    Not Wired Correctly

    The Trinity control will shut off power to the heating circulator while powering the DHW circulator, and vice-versa. You need two pumps; the zone pumps are ADDITIONAL. There is a timer function in the control to prevent the DHW cycle from running too long if something is amiss. Look again at suggested wiring in the manual. 
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Not wired correctly?

    As it opperates now when the dhw is calling it stops the main loop circulator and starts the boilermate circulator with the trinity controller. But the zone circulators will continue running and not stop with the main loop circulator if they are calling for heat. Also when the dhw is running it lowers the peak temp on the trinity controller down to around 175 instead of 200 it normally runs on for the main circulator. I haven't notice the issue as much since if there is only one or two zones calling for heat and the dhw is running it will eventually catch up and shut down, but when 3-6 zones are calling for heat and the dhw turns on the boiler runs sporadic and never catches up. So should the zone ciculators be shutting down with the main circulator when the dhw is on? Would a check valve between the dhw return and zone return allow the zone circulators to just cycle the water in the lines and allow the dhw to heat up, shut the dhw circulator down, and then when the main circulator came back allow the zones to pull heat again? Does it appear the loop is plumbed correctly? I've also wondered why the loop isn't stopped or capped at the zone circulators, and then returned at the zone return, instead it's all connected. Any ideas????
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Undersized circulator?

    Noticed last night the boiler started banging loudly. Went to check and the boilermate was the only thing running. I ordered a new grundfos 1/25hp circulator to replace the 1/25hp taco circulator. Now I'm wondering if the pump failed since it too small? After reading the ny thermal website they said the dhw pump needs to be at least as big as the main loop pump which is 1/12hp. Could this be my whole issue with the boiler?
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  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 2,382Member ✭✭✭
    Where

    Where's the return for the DHW? I see, what looks like a wide-open bypass.
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  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 2,382Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    As Said

    If the zone circs run on a call for DHW, something is not wired correctly, or the wrong components were used.Post a link to the I&O manual, I'd like to see their suggested piping diagrams.
    Post edited by Paul48 on
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Dhw return

    The return for the dhw is just above the return for the zone heating, and the zone heating return is just above the zone supply. http://www.nythermal.com/trinity_ti is the website for the Trinity boiler. What have other people used for the dhw circulator on these system? If I install a grundfos 1/25hp three speed circulator, what speed should I have it on?
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  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 2,382Member ✭✭✭
    JStar

    I believe JStar identified the problem.
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  • PlumdogPlumdog Posts: 873Member
    Need more pump

    The Ti 150 calls for a 0010 for the Heat loop and the DHW loop. The 15-58 3-speed is supposed to be equivalant to the 0010 when on high speed. I have used a 120v coil relay wired into the boiler Heating pump circuit to power up the "system" or "zone" pumps, so they will drop out when it goes into DHW mode. I have to go fix one soon that has no flow checks, and the Heating mode causes flow thru the Indirect, uses up the stored heat, then goes back to DHW ad infinitum. Don't feel too bad, just about every one I adopted is piped like that...WRONG. 
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Plumdog

    So Plumdog, by what you can see in the pics, where should there be check valves? Any changes you would do? I have a grundfos 15-58 3 speed coming tomorrow to replace the taco on the dhw. It started banging last night with just the call for dhw so I'm thinking bad circulator. Thank You in advance for any response
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  • TomTom Posts: 303Member
    Flow Problem

    I think from looking at the pics, you are correct in swapping that pump to the correct size. If the Primary pump and DHW pump are wired into the Trinity control then the priority will work fine. Everything I can see from the pics looks acceptable. Your flow problem is from the undersized pump on the dhw side, its also causing the banging in the boiler, from flash steaming which makes the popping from a lack of proper flow. Lets hope the 3/4 pipe is big enough.
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    NTI troubleshooting

    NY Thermal returned my call and was very helpful troubleshooting the issues. Came down to a "Grossly" undersized dhw pump and missing check valve on the zone return. I already ordered a grundfos 15-58 and the ny thermal tech said that pump will meet the minimum flow on the high setting but recommended installing the 26-99 for better performance. So now I ordered the larger 26-99 and will keep the 15-58 for a future zone circulator replacement. Now my question is when I replace the circulator am I going to need to purge the system after? With shut offs on the in and out of the circulator the only air would be from the circulator itself. Should I install the new circulator on bottom then fill with water and install the top to reduce the amount of air being introduced? Or should the air purgers in the system take care of any air from the circulator? Thanks everyone for the help!
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  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 2,382Member ✭✭✭
    What did I miss?

    Wasn't there a problem with the zone circs running on a call for DHW?
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Zones run during dhw

    The Ny thermal rep said the zone circulators should be able to run along with the dhw the way it is plumbed. My main issue is the undersized dhw pump he said. And I need a check valve in the zone return due to ghosting when the dhw is running.
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  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 2,382Member ✭✭✭
    Indirect

    Then everything goes through the indirect first on a call for DHW? I'd expect very long run times.
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Zones just recirculate

    The rep said the zones will just recirculate the water already in them when there is a call for dhw. When the call for dhw stops and the primary circulator takes over then the zones will receive heated boiler water. Does this not sound right? Do you see something else wrong?
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  • TomTom Posts: 303Member
    Bingo

    The Rep is right, because of the primary secondary piping and the fact the trinity control will shut off system pump and fire up the DHW pump, the zones will just spin and wait to for the DHW call to be completed then the system pump will be energized and all will be extremely well in the hydronic universe.
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  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 2,382Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    Deleted

    Post edited by Paul48 on
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  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 2,382Member ✭✭✭
    I see

    I finally enlarged the photo that shows you have a primary/ secondary loop(of sorts). It will provide a path for the zones to circulate.
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  • TomTom Posts: 303Member
    Paul

    I hear you I stayed out of this thread until I finally saw it!! I think the piped over the and down to put the low water cut off nice and high.
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  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 2,382Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    Struggling

    I was struggling to dope out what he had going on, until I enlarged that one photo.It violates most of the rules for P/S, but it's a path none the less.

    Now, let's look at the gas supply. Is that 3/8?
    Post edited by Paul48 on
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  • PlumdogPlumdog Posts: 873Member
    sounds like....

    you got it solved. The 26-99 might be overkill so try it on low or medium, but the high head is good for that 3/4 loop thru the Amtrol. Remember it is also pumping the boiler, which needs flow and has a pretty high head of it's own. I guess it won't hurt to let the zone circs run, just using some watts that don't do anything. Those guys at Trinity are really helpful, yes- no? (it's french)
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    1/2" gas line

    The gas line is 1/2". Is it easy enough to swap out the dhw circulator or should I have my heating company come do it? Would like to save the money, but am not familiar with purging and don't want to damage anything.
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  • TomTom Posts: 303Member
    Not too bad

    You have isolation flanges, so to get the air out I would do just as you said leave one side slightly loose and open a valve until you get a little water. Then tighten and let it go.



    Pretty straightforward
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Running Great!

    Installed the new Grundfos 26-99 and system seams to be running great. Turned on the dhw first and it was brought up to temp in about 6 mins, and its been off for about 2 days. It was taking 15+ with the taco, boiler is also staying lit during dhw call instead of constant cycling. Thanks everyone for the help!
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  • RandyMaineRandyMaine Posts: 15Member
    Er6

    Started getting Er6 again last night. But now the boiler seems to run fine with the gas value staying at 240 till the water gets up to around the 200 degree temp limit then gas dives down to around 85 and boiler goes out and er6 is displayed about 30 seconds later. Is the boiler overheating? There seems to be quite a bit of black residue in the condensate trap and the boiler has never been cleaned. Could this be the issue?
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  • TomTom Posts: 303Member
    Hmmm

    Randy



    I think you may have nailed it with the cleaning, I would have it serviced and tuned. It seems like it high fires well but low fire is making it choke. Don't just let the guy walk in and wipe it down, open your manual and make sure he does all that is required. Trinity's are very nice boilers but are specific with there needs.



    Tom
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  • NyTechSupportNyTechSupport Posts: 2Member
    Technical Support

    Hey all,

    If your still having trouble with the NTI boiler feel free to call our Technical Support toll free at 1-800-688-2575 ext 2 for technical support. If you do a combustion chamber cleaning be sure to also do a combustion analysis to ensure your running the boiler properly.



    cheers,

     
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