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Legionnaire's fopund at Luxor in Vegas

Paul Pollets
Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
<a href="http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nv-health-district-luxor-guests-legionnaires-15473086?ref=nf#.Tyf7HcXYd8E">http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nv-health-district-luxor-guests-legionnaires-15473086?ref=nf#.Tyf7HcXYd8E</a>

Comments

  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Hopefully....

    What happens in Vegas, STAYS in Vegas.



    Maybe, just maybe, one of these days, the operations of DHW system in ALL buildings will realize the deadly nature of this disease, and we can get over the turn it down syndrome as it pertains to DHW.



    This is the ONE place where turning it up is appropriate in our business.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • nugs
    nugs Member Posts: 77
    edited January 2012
    Legionella Bacteria

    I have been beating this drum for many years now with less than stellar success.  We have known for years that legionella bacteria can and will propagate in domestic hot water piping and storage vessels at temperatures much higher than thought,  For year we have been setting water heaters at 120 degrees to avoid scalding (and that's a good thing) but legionella will grow very nicely indeed at 120 degrees and in fact it will survive 130 degrees which is now what the plumbing board is telling us to set tank temperatures at.  Even at 130 the bacteria will grow in the downstream piping and in those pipes that are seldom used.  Legionella particularly loves to hide in the bio film that exists on the interior walls of the distribution piping.  Watts recommends that water temperatures be set at 160 with a tempering device and then ASSE 1070 or similar tempering valves installed as close to the point of use as practical (under the sink) and finally adding constant circulation of high temperature water throughout the domestic piping to keep water from cooling and stagnating.  As you can see, doing all of this will add a bit of money to the installation which is always a stumbling block to contractors and such that are only interested in low balling their costs.  A much more detailed explanation can be found on the Watts.com web site and is a valuable read for anyone interested in protecting the health and safety of the nation.  BTW, it is estimated that 80 something percent of Americans have been exposed to and been sickened by legionella bacteria.  Fortunately most times the illness is not fatal but for the elderly, very young children and those with compromised immune systems the disease can be deadly.
  • Paul Fredricks_3
    Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,557
    .

    I'd think that if you kept the tank at 160°, that would kill off the bacteria at the tank. then there is nothing left to grow down stream. Then you could mix at the tank.



    Though, I suppose that the bacteria comes in with the cold water to begin with, so it can grow anywhere that is downstream from the mix point. So unless we mix at the point where the water comes out, we can never fully guarantee that there won't be bacteria growth. Is this a no win situation, and we are just trying to eliminate as many possibilities as we can, or as practical?
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    UV light

    Kills legionella.  I'm installing a hotel system with 140F storage, 110F distribution and the recirc loops all fed through a UV sterilizer before the water re-enters the loop.  This allows the UV unit to be sized to the recirc flow rate, which is orders of magnitude cheaper than trying to zap the entire building HW flow..
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Great idea...

    and I use to do the same thing with magnetic water conditioners. Treatment is constant that way.



    Has this UV thing been tested long term? I'd heard there were some early "issues" with the use of UV. Something about armoring themselves in a hard case, slipping in to the system and bursting at a different location. But then agin, I could be confusing that report with another report. Too many reports. Not enough action. Glad to see the results of what you are doing. Personally, I don't think ANY treatment on a common system will cure all that ails water, but if this is effective, it might be priceless.... Now if the "system" is properly designed, maintained and operated, it CAN be done (no dead legs for bacteria harbors) but is tough to retrofit.



    I am working on the designs for the new DHW C.R. for the system with all the hot water issues. Finding some really interesting conditions ... ($$$aving$).



    A UV unit would fit nicely at 10 guppies per minute :-) That is what GPM stands for isn't it...



    Thanks for contributing.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Cold water piping

     So what to do about cold water piping that sits at room temperature legionella does survive at room temp. Totally agree with all that has been said.



     I'm not so sure its not the type of pnemonia my wife was in the hospital with for 5 days 3 weeks ago.  Collapsed lung from auto accident 7 months ago did not help, but she has never had pnemonia.  I asked if they tested for it I got a deer in the head lights look believe that?? Never did find out what strain of bacteria was the culprit.



     I keep our water heater at 150*
    • 70 to 80 °C (158 to 176 °F): Disinfection range
    • At 66 °C (151 °F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
    • At 60 °C (140 °F): They die within 32 minutes
    • At 55 °C (131 °F): They die within 5 to 6 hours
    • Above 50 °C (122 °F): They can survive but do not multiply
    • 35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F): Ideal growth range
    • 20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F): Growth range
    • Below 20 °C (68 °F): They can survive but are dormant




    • Source Wikipedia





      Gordy
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    UV and legionella

    During the planning for this project, I wanted to reduce recirc temps both to minimize parasitic losses and remove the cost and complexity of anti-scald valves at every shower.  I started researching ozone, since it's so effective on most other critters, but soon came across these:

    http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/53/2/447.pdf

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10677839

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11447890



    My conclusion: UV on a recirc leg seems like cheap insurance.
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    50>75

    Sooner or later it was going to make news.





    I have been selling customers on smaller tanks with mixing valves for the longest time. I convince them that there's 25 less gallons of standby to heat up when no one is home, and that the mixing valve will allow them to get more mileage from the tank when needed....and they buy the story. The goal is to sell them protection without them knowing.





    As for temperatures killing the bacteria, I was only aware that hot water halts production. Never heard about it killing the bacteria.





    Using a recirc line to treat water sounds interesting. As ME stated, I too have seen magnetic water treatment on recirc lines. Read some articles on health care facilities treating cold incoming water with uv, but unsure what they were treating for.



    Subb'ed for more info on uv.
    :NYplumber:
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,561
    Open Radiant

    I few years ago I replaced an open radiant system in a very high end home. The slabs were heated by remote gas hot water heaters located around the home.The slabs never performed well  and the water heaters only lasted a few years due to the fact that they never saw water over 110 degrees.I was struck with amount of bio-mat that was lining the pipes in both the radiant and DHW pipes. It took a significant effort to clean them.

    I wonder how many "mystery illnesses" are caused by this and are going undetected.

    Interestingly the legionilla  bacteria is not harmful to consume but infects our lungs while showering.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Unfortunately...

    This type of system (combination DHW/Space heating OPEN loop systems) are legal under the two plumbing codes.



    Dave Yates and I tried to get them made illegal, but lost out to a more powerful intere$t...



    I will never understand why it is that money talks, and BS walks, especially when it comes to the plumbing codes that are SUPPOSED to protect the health of the nation. Why even have codes?



    They wanted us to "Show them the bodies"... It has been stated by the CDC that Legionaires Disease is THE most misdiagnosed disease in the WORLD... And they wanted us to show them the bodies...



    Shaking my head in disgust..



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    The codes will change...

    ...when a well recognized politician dies from the disease.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Or one of their loved ones...

    Thinking about the requirement for FVIR water heaters here...



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Tim P._3
    Tim P._3 Member Posts: 50
    Fire sprinkler, too

    Recently saw a Uphonor ( I think it was uphonor, anyway) residential fire sprinkler that was tapped into the potable water at various locations.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    residential sprinklers

    Both NFPA 13D and the 2009 IFC allow this.
  • nugs
    nugs Member Posts: 77
    Legionella

    You have to understand that raising the tank temperature alone is not enough protection because legionella is a very tenacious bacteria and although 160 will kill those bacteria that may have propagated in the tank, they can still reappear in the biofilm of the downstream piping as the water cools on its way to the fixtures.  UV light may help alleviate some of the growth but as of yet has not been proven to be a reliable fix.  This is why we need to circulate water at 160 degrees throughout the domestic hot water piping and then temper it as close to the fixtures as possible.  The mixing valve on the tank is there to insure a very close temperature so that the downstream mixing valves are able to do their job more efficiently. 
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    temperature cure

    That will definitely work, but really - there's just got to be a better way to skin this cat.  Circulating at 160 creates enough problems to justify a fair bit of capex for an alternative solution.  Off the top of my head I can come up with:



    What happens if one of the 5,000 point of use tempering valves in a hotel like the MGM Grand fails?  Does any one of us really want to be on the receiving end of THAT lawsuit?



    Parasitic energy losses will cost literally $Billions in cash -- plus another fraction of our immense national defense budget and some (undoubtedly disputed) environmental impact.



    Hard water deposition and corrosion issues increase in their respective areas.



    ?
  • LazyDevil
    LazyDevil Member Posts: 7
    Controling Biofilm

    There has been research in the use of chlorine dioxide to limit the growth of biofilm and directly to limit legionella in both domestic water and cooling towers.



    http://www.legionella.org/ZhangICHE07.pdf



    This paper dates back to 2007 but is still interesting reading
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    I agree...

    It;s expensive in more ways than just expenditures to use HOT water for disinfection. I think every system should also have some means of electromagnetic water conditioning too. It would eliminate the scale that harbors bacteria.



    I picked up some literature from a wholesaler today on a Kuno UV conditioner that will handle 7 GPM, and it can handle the temperatures. I;m sure there are a million different UV water conditioners on the market. Anyone have any experience with them? Maintenance issues? Light failure alarms?



    Always looking for a better way.



    TIA



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • nugs
    nugs Member Posts: 77
    Electromagnetic hocus pocus

    Mark;  I have spent over 20 years testing and researching so called magnetic and other similar types of water conditioning equipment.  I have in fact collaborated with several universities and research and testing companies that have also been involved in these things.  I will categorically tell you that absolutely none of them do anything at all except remove the cash from unsuspecting suckers that buy them.  Other than dozens of so called testimonials there is not a single piece of scientific evidence or testing that supports any of the claims made.  Because of my tenacity on this issue on other sites, I have several times been served with cease and desist orders from companies that produce this crap and in every case these orders have been overturned due to the fact that none of these guys are able to introduce a single piece of supportable evidence in court. (or anywhere else either for that matter)  The gentleman that runs this site is a chemist by profession and has also done the research. 





    www.chem1.com/CQ/  His explanations of the underlying physics and chemistry are spot on.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Well Nugs, I agree and I disagree...

    I have been using them here in Colorado for around 35 years, and have seen them de-lime systems that I didn't think were de-limeable. I have deployed them all across this fine country of ours. Granted, my experience is "anecdotal", but in my opinion, it is valid and proven.



    If it were really hocus pocus, do you believe that numerous companies could support thousands of people selling junk science since 1964 ? (Superior Water Conditioner Company, and Field Controls Corp)



    I agree that none of them has any scientific basis to their claims, but science don't mean squat to the actual findings in the field. I will admit, that I would NOT recommend them for use in critical operations (steam power plants or the like) but I have many years of positive experience, personally as well as corporately confirming results.



    Numerous other respected Wallies have contacted me off line, and confirmed that they too have seen positive results in more areas than just lime scale avoidance.



    I've read Russian reports, American reports, and a report done by the Haifa Institute in Israel that related to agriculture usage, and they too saw some fantastic results.



    I am also aware of a vintner in California who has a proprietary magnetic water conditioning system for his vines that has his net sugar productions higher than anyone else in his valley.



    The real bottom line is, that they are effective in controlling certain types of lime scale, but not ALL (ineffective on glass water corrosion, a silica based calcification).



    There are some people here on this forum, who also were devout ion exchange advocates who gave these conditioners a try, and saw the results, and are now firm believers of the process.



    So, I hear what you are saying as it pertains to the theoretical sciences involved, but trust me when I tell you that in some (most) cases they do in fact work quite well. I'd hate to have to testify in court FOR the product, because the only real proof that I have that they work are the jobs where I have actually employed them and seen significant and complete eliminations of hard water scaling.



    Trust me, I am NOT a snake oil sales man. I am a recognized expert witness in hydronics in Colorado and Federal Court venues. I can't afford to promote, or speak of something that is in fact bogus...



    I am also a licensed master plumber with 36 years field experience, FWIW.



    We are both entitled to our opinions. You've expressed yours, and I've expressed mine. Let's see what others experience's have been.



    The link that you provided is a 404 dead spot. Try re posting again. I am always willing to read and learn, but my personal experience means more than research done in a lab, far away from the reaches of reality.



    Sincerely,



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    Magnetic

    I have installed and seen magnetic treatment work as a descaler in steam equipment & areas with extreme hard water. Some are gimmicks and some work. Those "as seen on tv" magnets that you slap on the water main do nothing. There has to be a flow restriction internally that is matched to the size of the unit, and internal baffling to agitate the water. I'm unsure how magnetic treatment pertains to legionella, maybe I missed something in this thread.



    Trying to dig up info on the uv water treatment. And design a system that can pick off all the legs a a dhw system for a return line.
    :NYplumber:
  • Tim P._3
    Tim P._3 Member Posts: 50
    I understand it's lawful

    Similar to open loop radiant.. just because its permitted doesn't make it a great idea.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Legionnella in potable systems.

    I've been following this for as long as anyone and am not going to profess an answer. But I too have an observation. I don't see any way to easily get rid of it by 100%. But, you can make it better.

    I personally feel that pumping extra hot water or chlorine through the piping is slow and inefficient. But, if it is the slime that is hiding the bacteria that is worrying you, consider this.

    I have been draining/winterizing houses for over 40 years. Pump out the water heater and open the low point drains. About 25 years ago, I started to see systems that the installers thought that a "low point" was a bad point in their life, that "pitch" was a musical term, or that a "drip" was a spurt under pressure.

    Try draining a series looped baseboard system that is looped between the floors with a finished ceiling and no drains. Installed with the misguided belief that PEX won't split (except where the fittings meet the PEX.

    I started blowing everything out with compressed air and it doesn't take a lot. I had houses that I drained with not a single problem in years. When I started draining with air, I was astounded at how much water was still in the system and not causing a freeze up split or push out. In the Spring, when I re-fill the systems, it is amazing to see the nasty greenish schmeg that comes out of the water pipes. 

    So, IMO, if you want to do a better job of getting rid of the environment for bacteria, drain and blow out the system with air. Legionella is an anaerobic bacteria and can not live in air or oxygen, It is NOT an aerobic Bacteria. If you introduce air into the system, it will not survive. The swirling of the air and water through the pipes will clean the inside of the pipes. If you are into chlorination, blow it out first, introduce the chlorine with water and blow it all out. Sometimes the air/water vapor/mist that comes out of the system when being blown by air is really astringent and nasty.

    I know that houses that get drained annually, will have less Legionella hiding in the pipes.

    The bacteria that you get from shower heads are in the aerosol spray from the shower head and are inhaled into the lungs from the contaminated water droplets.

    FWIW
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Ozone

    Is the most potent form of oxygen.  If you look at the charts on p.5 of the PDF I cited above, you will see that it kills farm more slowly than UV light, but over time it will eventually kill more of the critters.  The implication here is that repeated exposure to O3 (which will circulate in the system, unlike UV which only works at the treatment site) should be even more effective than UV.  In order to achieve this without oxidizing all the metal in the system (O3 is VERY aggressive in high concentrations) we would need to install an ORP sensor and modulate the injection rate.  
  • nugs
    nugs Member Posts: 77
    Bad Link

    Sorry about that link.  Try this www.chem1.com



    His site has the scientific evidence and explanations that should help clarify our findings on the magnetic, radio wave, electric current, et.al when it comes to non traditional water treatments.  Again, I have extensively lab tested many of these products in the past 20 years or so and under a variety of real world conditions.  To date my results have always been the same and that is that any effects at all are so minimal in nature as to not be recordable.  I understand that folks will install this stuff and "feel" that some change has occurred but feelings are not quantifiable results.  When it comes to the removal of cations, testing is pretty simple and straight forward.  One of the tests that we often do involves circulating "treated" water through pipes that have been subjected to very hard scaling.   We measure the thickness of the scale before starting the tests and then after we run the test.  In all cases, no scale has been removed and in fact, more scale has been deposited because the device does not remove cations from the water.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Non-Softening Scale Control Devices

    Is clogging up this legionella thread.  Does our esteemed moderator have the tools to move all these posts to a new thread? I'm interested and have some things to contribute, but I really think it deserves a proper title, so I'm starting a new thread with the above title.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    It may be lawful, but...

    ...was precisely my point. 
  • nugs
    nugs Member Posts: 77
    Thread Drift

    My apologies for taking this thread in another direction,  I replied to a short comment about magnetic equipment and as I have extensive knowledge in this area, I jumped on it when in truth its only relationship to the topic was some speculation as to the effectiveness of such devices on legionella bacteria.
This discussion has been closed.