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The FUN has begun...

Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
Finally, the new "utility room" addition to the sleeper house is done, and I have begun the task of rebuilding the mechanical systems for what is known locally as "The Sleeper" house.



Here is an exterior photo of the iconic symbol perched high above I-70 in Genesee Colorado. Everyone is familiar with the exterior of the house, and now that I am charged with making it as energy efficient as it can reasonably be, I am learning a LOT more about the internal workings. Most of the people who knew something about the super structure and supporting mechanical systems are long gone, so I've had to do a LOT of onsite investigations. First task was to discover and repair 4 freeze breaks and one ridiculous cut -n- cap job done by some local service company. That process took one week, and took me to some pretty scary places within the shell of the building.



In any case, we are under the gun to get 'er done because O' Man Winter is just on the there side of the continental divide.



I will provide up dates as time allows. This system is going to be a real eye opener, using state of the art equipment.



Also, a large Thank You and tip of the proverbial hat to Paul Rohrs and all the good folks at Lochinvar for their assistance and participation on this project. I assure you, this is going to be a mechanical room like none you've ever seen before...



Stay tuned and feel free to ask questions.



Enjoy!



ME
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It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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Comments

  • MikeyBMikeyB Posts: 692Member ✭✭
    Project

    Looks like a fun project, best of luck with it Mark. How do you plan to vent the Knights? I recently heard from Lochinvar that they are in the middle of approving Polypropylene pipe (Innoflue)for venting of some of their boilers, and they will be updating their Install manuals for this type of pipe soon, might be a good option over pvc/cpvc if the venting will  be a challenge.
    · ·
  • Fantastic!

    It looks out of this world. 



    Keep us connected.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
    · ·
  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,220Member ✭✭✭
    Next thing you know

    it will be retrofitting the space station heating system. You are by the way the perfect guy for that seeing you live and work in a limited amount of air environment at high altitude



    Looks like an interesting project.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Venting issues....

    Yes, we are facing some definite venting issues. The new owner owns a commercial construction firm that specializes in traffic control signals. I told him that we were facing certain expansion/contraction issues. He is a fantastic imagineer. He said they run into this problem with their conduits when running them across bridges. I calculate that our venting run will experience approximately 7.7" of growth from cold to hot, and if not accommodated, it IS going to create other issues. So, we are developing an expansion joint to take care of the problem. More later.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • Clif HeeneyClif Heeney Posts: 52Member ✭✭
    Flying Saucer House

    Hi Mark!



    When we infrequently traveled to Denver when I was much younger (mid 1960's) we always looked forward to seeing the Flying Saucer House.  That is what my family called it.  We also thought that it was round, but can see from your photos that it is not!



    Please do keep posting on your project.  I always wondered what the interior looked like, now I know what some of it looks like.  It will be great to see your promised mechanical room!



    Be Well, My Friend



    Clif
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    End of day 3...

    Notice the telephone commercial....



    ME
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    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2011
    Traffic Jam...

    Was 5 minutes late arriving at the job today. Had to wait for these animals to cross the road... It's a TOUGH job, but somebody has GOT to do it... :-)



    ME
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    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    End of day 2...

    Amazing what a person can do with the right power tools, isn't it...



    ME
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    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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  • lchmblchmb Posts: 2,011Member ✭✭✭
    wow

    Sometimes this job is just fun...and your having one of those times! Nice Job!!
    · ·
  • Paul RohrsPaul Rohrs Posts: 79Member
    edited October 2011
    Nice...

    Admittedly I am a little bit biased but that is the start of one terrific looking job.



    Looking forward to seeing the final results.   Do you have a target completion date?



    Regards,



    Paul

    p.s.- If those were steam boilers, you could have a calliope!
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Funny you should say that...

    The owner had all of his family up for the end of the filming session with H&G TV yesterday, and his eldest son grabbed a chair and was sitting in front of the manifold looking like an organ player, while his younger brother snapped pictures of him...



    The completion date is within the next thirty days for the heating system. Problem is, the owner is ADD, and keeps changing his mind about route manner and method. It's his money, and I am now working by the hour, so the target keeps moving. It just makes scheduling other work a little tough, but the pay is great, and working with the owner is a lot of fun. He owns a large construction company that does mostly electrical work for traffic control systems (cars and light rail transportation systems) here in Denver.



    This is going to be the ultimate Man Cave when it is done... Bowling alley, Starship Enterprise Control Deck, Dilithium Crystal Mine, Super Efficient hydronic heating system and on and on....



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • MikeyBMikeyB Posts: 692Member ✭✭
    Nice

    Real nice work Mark, I have a few questions, Are you doing all the work yourself? or do you have Helper/Mechanic on board along w/you, what do you have in mind for DHW? Any reason your not using ProPress? what kind of realy controls are you going to use? Sorry about all the questions, please keep the pictures coming
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Thanks Mikey...

    I am a sole proprietor. One man shop.



    THe owner has provided me with an excellent common laborer who is ready and willing to learn, but I have him doing menial tasks like cutting uni strut (200' of the stuff), helping me hang boilers on the wall and the such. I may let hime burn few easy access joints later.



    I use a power saw (10" carbide tip chop saw) and clean the ends with a Rockwell1" belt sander. Not your "manual" normal set up.



    I enjoy working by myself. It makes my ingenuity shine :-)



    As for Pro Press, firstly, I don't own a machine. I came out of partial retirement to do this job. Secondly, the owner is old school. He'd rather pay extra for the craftsmanship and have it look fantastic, as opposed to getting it done quicker, but looking kind of funky. Unless you have both ends of your work tightly chucked in strut, it is almost impossible to get a straight joint with PP. Such is the price of speed...



    Larry, the owner, said on camera yesterday that the mechanical system is his tribute to the working tradesman. I am honored to be working with him on this project. Not only is he extremely intelligent out of the box thinker, he also fancies himself as an amateur artist, and actually owns a LOT of famous art work,some of which will hang in this extremely unique museum/home..



    As for controls, there are some existing controls that the previous owner had installed. It is a whole house EMS/Security/sound/ audio video system. We will re-use that system, and tie it back into the new system. The Knights will be run on their Cascade control logic, with the right hand boiler being the Leader, and also doing DHW through an indirect heater. Ilook forward to hearing the symphony when the system is fired up.



    There are two Wilo VS circulators, which will be controlled by the Knights.



    The diamond plate is mounted to 3/4" plywood, which is mounted on 2X4 stand off. All (most) wiring will be hidden behind the board for the "clean" look. This whole system will be the central focus point of his Man Cave. He intends to put up some track lighting to highlight the boiler operation. The Knight controls will also be interfaced into one of four computers that will be a part of the Star Trek Control System, and will allow him to bring the boilers computer up on the the big screen.



    You can't really see it well, but there is a large rock outcropping that juts into the mechanical room, and he is going to polish this rock, enhance it with some special treatments, and put it under a black light, which will allow it to glow. It's his Dilithium Crystal mine...



    I asked the producers from H&G TV how many Man Caves they'd seen that actually had a real rock structure in them. She answered "NONE"...



    Did I mention that he's going to have a single lane bowling alley down there? Cosmic Bowling with laser lights, and dynamic sounds, etc...



    Thanks, and keep the questions coming.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • KestrelKestrel Posts: 102Member
    beautiful wall of pipes

    Hey Mark - I'm getting ready to install my Knight (I decided to go with the WHN-085).

    Is it possible to post some closer-in pics of the near boiler piping - for a newbie getting his bearing correct?  Also, do you have a schematic of the system, for orientation?



    I'm curious, also - what drove the decision on the make/model of the boilers?



    Thanks!
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2011
    Kestrel...

    The owner depends on me to make the decisions about product selection. In my humble opinion, the Knights represent the best state of the art product available on the North American market. They have THE most flexible controls of ANY boiler I've seen on the open market.



    As for near boiler piping, I can't do it any justice with a camera. The best recommendation I can make would be to follow the manufacturers installation manual to the T. The boiler comes with its own boiler circulator, which has an internal check valve. If you will be dong DHW from your boiler, the pump serving the DHW tank must also have a check valve in its circuit. The manuals are available on line at lochinvar.com



    I will have to generate a drawing, and won't be able to do so until next week. It is a 2 temperature system,set up primary/secondary. The boilers and their pumps are the primary, and the loads are coming off this primary as secondaries. It will also be doing snowmelt through a flat plate heat exchanger. The logic on the Knights allow for up to three different outdoor temperature resets, and I will be using all three on this project. Low (RFH) medium high (rental panel radiators) and high (snowmelt) temperature calls.



    I do not work up there on Fridays. I save that day for "other" work and am headed out the door to the Western Slope to perform some necessary changes to a friends heating system in Dillon, then on to Hydronicahhh. I just turned my heating system on up their via the internet and my ENV control logic. Nothing better than showing up to your second home that is nice and toasty warm..:-)



    Boiler sizing was based on a zero diversity load factor, and the needs of the building/physical plant considerations and altitude (8,000' ASL).



    Keep us posted on your progress.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,220Member ✭✭✭
    Mark, my next Mod/Con Boiler

    manual Volume IV is going to feature the Knight. I could use some photos as you proceed and I will feature them in the manual if you don't mind.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    ABsolutely Tim...

    I have a lot of other Lochinvar photos as well.





    Let me know when you want/need them.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,220Member ✭✭✭
    I will let you know

    Mark as I am still in the research phase for the Knight.
    · ·
  • NYplumberNYplumber Posts: 368Member ✭✭
    edited October 2011
    Solder relief

    " I may let hime burn few easy access joints later."



    Have him start with the relief valve piping....not much you can mess up there.







    "I use a power saw (10" carbide tip chop saw) and clean the ends with a Rockwell1" belt sander. Not your "manual" normal set up."



    Is this how you cut and clean your copper? Interesting!?!
    :NYplumber:
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    The fun continues...

    ME
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    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • MikeyBMikeyB Posts: 692Member ✭✭
    Update

    ME, Fantastic work. Where are you locating your PONPC? and will you be incorporating a by-pass on your PRV rig to make up for the initial fill/purge (looks like it will take a while)? or do you use a differant method? You should vidoe tape your start up and post it on You Tube, for us to view.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Thanks Mikey...

    The PONPC will be connected to one of the branches on the bottom between the fill and purge ball valve. The expansion tank will physically be located to the left of the board, and the DHW tank to the right, near the boilers. All pumps will pump away from the PONPC.



    There will not be a continuous make up, rather an oversized expansion tank with reservoir capacity to handle deaeration, and an owner who is VERY aware of all operating parameters. There will be an extra low pressure sensor wired to the ones energy management system. We will know there is an issue before the owners does. Also, there will be some fairly expensive art in the home, and the homeowner is trying to get a break on his premiums by NOT having a continuous source of make up water to the heating system, just in case....



    I am thinking of getting one of those helmet cams, and recording numerous sessions of the work being performed for later production on You Tube. Great idea. Got to document while the documenting is good :-)



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • james patrickjames patrick Posts: 70Member ✭✭
    WOW

    Cool system.

    Post pics when you can.

    I read that Genesee Colorado is about 7650-8000' elevation.

    Did you get the high altitude controllers?

    I've been trying for 6 weeks to get a price quote for the WHN085 high altitude.

    I'm still fighting with my TT Solo 60 E02 errors.

    BBP
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Fer sure...

    Rated for high altitude application.



    I've been off the job for a while, waiting for the sheet rockers/finishers/painters/texture people to get out of my way. Will take some more progress pictures as soon as I get back up there.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Update...

    The project continues t move forward.



    Hope to have pressure tests on the system soon. WIll be starting the wiring soon with colored conduit. THe carpenters began building the control deck for the Starship today. It is going to be AWESOME. 4 HUGE big screen TV's, and on and on...



    Enjoy



    ME
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    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • MikeyBMikeyB Posts: 692Member ✭✭
    Nice Work

    Looking great Mark, can you tell us more about the method your using for Expansion/Contraction on the Exhaust & Intake? in the last pic it in the middle it looks like you have some kind of Expasion joint on the pipes? and I noticed the small rings of 4 inch over your 3" pipe.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Good eye Mikey...

    I have what I refer to as "Anchors", which are the ones with the 3" clamps on them. These are the points that growth/contraction would emminate FROM. Then we have a bunch of what I refer to as "Glides". The glides are 4" PVC placed over the 3" to allow the pipe to move freely. The growth potential is then directed to the expansion joints, of which there are three in the long run. One on each remote end, and one in the middle.



    These expansion joint units are constructed of CPVC, have 2 each Buna N O rings recessed in machined grooves, and have 10" of overall travel before the unit is either fully compressed, or completely retracted. They are set at the mid range level to accomodate either expansion or contraction. Each joint will help to accomodate an overall expansion potential of 7", and will hence see approximately 2.5" of movement.



    Although not currently shown, each expansion joint will have a Unistrut stabilizer firmly clamped to it to keep the joint from getting cocked during movement.



    This growth potential has raised its ugly head numerous times during my tenure, especially in situations where we have to go vertical though a numerous story building to get from the basement to the roof. The typical response is to bind the tubing every 3', and hope for the best. On jobs where I have had an opportunity to go back and review the system, the tubing is showing signs of stress and waer at the tube to clamp interface, and the Unistrut system was showing signs of movement and eventual failure of the concrete anchors. It's time to address the 500 pound gorilla sitting in the corner. The owner of this home was key in finding a good solution and is willing to allow for regular inspections to make sure that it is working as designed. He is smart enough to realize that he may have a long term solution to a potential problem. His company utilizes these expansion joints on long bridges that have conduits running the length of the bridge. He liked the idea of using anchors and glides and actually controlling the directional growth potentials.



    So many times, we take things for granted in the field, and never really give it any thought until it is too late, and something has failed. I would NEVER consider experimentation at the consumers expense, but we had a serious situation that had to be addressed and none of the current manufacturers had any solutions for our problem... And this is NOT a regular consumer.



    There will be a CO alarm at each and every expansion joint located in the Cosmic Bowling alley. Did I mention that he has decided to install a long single rail of strut on the ceiling down this hallway with a trolley to allow whoever is the pin sitter to get to the other end of the alley quickly:-) ? I am going to help him develop a hand brake to slow the trolley down near the end of the tunnel.



    Fun project for sure.



    Thanks for asking Mikey.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • MikeyBMikeyB Posts: 692Member ✭✭
    Expansion Joint

    Mark, when you get a chance can you take a close up pic of the Expansion joint? and thanks for the detailed explanition, this really is a cool project
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Better yet...

    Here is the manufacturers drawing of the product.



    ME
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    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • IronmanIronman Posts: 2,192Member ✭✭✭
    I Thought They Looked Familiar

    Mark,



    That's the same expansion coupling that we use on the riser from an underground conduit for an electric service. I wonder if any equipment manufactures would write these into the I&O manuals.



    Another great idea by M.E.
    Bob Boan







    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Thanks Bob...

    I am doubtful that any of the manufacturers will spec this product until it is completely tested,listed and labeled for the application, and that all takes a significant amount of time and money.



    The best that we can hope for is that they recognize the fact that expansion and contraction MUST be accounted for, and compensated for. If they create a demand, someone will come up with an approved solution. At present, its like the problem doesn't exist in their minds eye, therefore it doesn't exist.



    The Europeans probably have not seen it as an issue because their venting runs are typically so short. That is by intent and design. Here in the good ol' US of A, our main physical plant is usually centrally core located,hence the need for longer vertical and horizontal runs. In this particular case, the roof over this structure is a landscaped area frequented by people (I call it the Partio) and venting in the vicinity was not an option.



    Sometimes you have to deal with the hand that you were dealt...



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • marsmars Posts: 69Member
    Perfect fit Mark

    That project looks like a fun one Mark have a good time with it. I am a little bit jealous, we should do lunch when we get the chance. I will be working in Riva Chase on Thursday and Friday we could try to do Guidos for a slice. 
    Matt Rossi
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    If you;d like to see the insides of this unique home....

    Tune in to Home and Garden TV in 30 minutes...



    If I didn't end up on the cutting room floor, you MIGHT get a quick glimpse of me. :-)



    Enjoy!



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • Sal SantamauraSal Santamaura Posts: 75Member
    I watched it...

    and thought us lucky that a few brief shots of (Myson?) baseboards survived the cut.  Then you and your diamond plate-mounted artwork appeared.  You looked a lot less tired than one would expect for a contractor who must have recently become an engineer and who's working 24 hours per day.  :)



    Congratulations!  Enjoy your 15 minutes...
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Thanks Sal...

    Actually, those were Runtal radiators. Good eye tho...



    I think the producer was probably running scared of irking one of thier regular advertisers because there was a LOT more filming that took place in the mechanical room that didn't make the final cut.



    Funny how they can spend the better part of 2 days on site and only come out with 15 minutes worth of tape. There were also a lot of other scenes that didn't make it to the final cut. Oh well. My fleeting brush with movie stardom will have to wait :-)



    Upward an onward.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • MikeOBrienMikeOBrien Posts: 7Member
    Very nice looking job!

    Hey buddy looks great!  Gotta admit I'm super jealous but couldn't think of a better mind for the job!
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Hi Mike...

    Thanks for the kudos. Thought about you yesterday as I was drinking my Organo Gold coffee in the mountains. In fact, I parked in your Uncles snowy driveway to check on his neighbor yesterday.



    Hope you and the girls are doing well.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    · ·
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Fire in the hole....

    I test fired both of the Lochinvar boilers today. I have the high voltage side wired, but am awaiting the electricians to get me permanent power before I turn the new system completely over. To be honest, I wanted to "test" the expansion joints, and couldn't wait any longer, so I hooked the 119 gallon reverse indirect up to the lead boiler, filled it with water and turned it loose.



    The pipes shown, going from top to bottom are (1) exhaust, (2) combustion air, (3) exhaust and (4) combustion air. All joint were initially set to EXACTLY the same, so as you can see, the # 3 tube is partially telescoped into the expansion joint receiver. It works exactly as I had planned. :-)



    Still lots of work to do on the low voltage side, with three 6 station ZVC's to be invisibly wired, and actually tying the new into the old.



    Will post pics of that part as time allows, and work gets done.



    Enjoy, and ask away!



    ME
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    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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  • Tim P.Tim P. Posts: 43Member
    pvc expansion joints

    By coincidence I found that Charlotte also makes PVC expansion joints for use in DWV.



    It's "Part No. 133" in their catalog (http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/DimensionalCatalogs/Plastic_Pipe_Fittings_DC-DWV%28609%29.pdf)



    Anyway, thanks for sharing.  I check back often to see if this thread has been updated.
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  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,888Member ✭✭✭
    Upon closer inspection....

    I had my wholesale supplier look into those, because I had used them before on expansive soils. The manufacturer allows them to be used in vertical applications only :-(



    I suspect that their lawyers would have a hissy fit if someone applied them horizontally, and in a pipe conveying deadly gasses...



    One of these days, someone like Charlotte will get their act together, and realize the potential in fittings like this and hopefully take the time and money necessary to get it certified for that use. Hopefully before something disasterous happens in the field....



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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