Help - New Steam Boiler Piping

PJB177

I recently had a steam boiler installed, and after reading this forum, have realized that it does not seem to be piped correctly.  The boiler is a Peerless ECT-04, which I confirmed is sized correctly to the radiation in the house.  The system is also setup with a tankless coil and SuperStor 30 gallon aquabooster.



The process has been very long and difficult to say the least.  On the first day, the contractor ordered the incorrect sized boiler.  Then he tried to swap out the stainless steel aquabooster with a glass-lined model, even though I had paid for stainless steel.  After the correct boiler was received and fully piped, the contractor left and a technician from another company came in to run the oil line and file the burner.  Unfortunately, the entire system was installed with the burner too close to the oil tank, so the technician could not work on it since it was against code.  The contractor had to come in the next day to move and re-pipe the entire system.  All the issues along the way made me question the contractor, which brought me to this site so I could confirm whether it was done correctly.  Unfortunately, it does not appear so.



Besides being piped in copper which I now realize is not correct, the system also causes a lot of banging.  After looking at the installation instructions, the boiler calls for two risers, but only one is installed.  Also, the riser goes directly to the steam main, with no header in between. 



We are also having issues with the hot water.  After about 3 minutes of using the shower, the water temperature drops dramatically. 



I tried to attach pictures from all angles to help with diagnosing any potential issues.  I really need some help getting a full list of all the issues with the installation so that I can either ask the contractor to come in and fix his work, or hire another company to help.

Robbie

Wonder

Was the old piping all cast iron or black pipe? All that copper must have cost you a bundle! And, if he put it in by mistake, I'd say you may have a good case for looking at incompetance issues...

Scott

PJB177

Old Pipes

Yes, all the old piping was black pipe.  I don't think he did it by accident.  My guess is that he  used copper to save time.

Unknown

Peerless Installation

First of all it would help if you took some more pictures. Try to get the boiler piping and where it leads to the steam mains overhead in the picture. Take pictures from all sides. If they are in high resolution, we can blow them up and trace where each pipe goes.



I don't know where you got you contractor but it is fairly obvious he hasn't followed the installation manual. I don't know what sort of contract you have with him but generally what is expected is that the contractor should follow the manual and this is what the installation bid was based on. You have to realize that the manufacturer's instructions are usually the "minimum" rather than the "optimum". The first thing I'd do is read carefully through the installation instructions and underline anything that you see where the instructions haven't been followed. If you don't have the installation manual you can download a copy from Peerless Boiler's website.



You may also want to have a real steam pro look at the system for you and make recommendations. Remember there is the "minimum" and the "optimum" If you want the "optimum" in all fairness you should be ready to pay more. Then it will be a choice of who does the job and how do you settle any monetary differences with the old contractor.  You might want to look in the "Find a Professional" above and see if there is one local to you. Scroll down the page and look up under the listing "States" as the zip code function sometimes doesn't work well. the software has been updated and still has some "bugs". There are some really good steam pros listed there.  For an example of what an "optimum" piping job by a steam pro should look like, attached is a photo of a Peerless installation done by "Clammy", who does excellent work as you can see.

- Rod

PJB177

Additional Picture

Attached is a picture showing the riser going up to the main.



Any additional help would be greatly appreciated.

Steve Garson_2

Bad install

Your installer clearly has no experience with steam.  I suggest that you confirm that the instruction manual states that black iron be used.  Show the installed the instruction manual and ask him to install it to the specs on the instruction manual.



The present installation is very wrong and will be noisy and eventually leak.



You might be better to make a deal to pay him for his work and bring in a real pro to redo the piping.  We're just talking steam piping, not the water pipes.



Expect to pay more.  Did you select this guy as the low bidder?

PJB177

Boiler Sizing

He wasn't the low bidder, and I had some people tell me he was pretty good, I guess maybe they weren't heating their houses with steam as I presumed.



Another follow up question:

When sizing the boiler to the house, would you consider the piping from the boiler to the radiators in the calculation for Steam sqft?  I come up with 584 steam sqft when calculating the EDR of the radiators alone, but there isn't a very big loop going through the basement for the steam mains so is it possible that the allowance of 1.33 from the manufacturer sizing chart might be too high?  The main is either 2 or  2 1/2", and goes in an 11 ft x 14 ft rectangle through the basement and also has a 9-10 ft section coming off the back of the rectangle.

Jamie Hall

Oh dear

that piping really is a problem.  Sometimes copper can be lived with, but this doesn't look like one of those times.  Sorry about that.



Just having one riser instead of two is going to really make problems.



And no insulation.  Oh dear.



As to the sizing, you do include the 1.33 factor on the system EDR, even though the mains are relatively small.  It's kind of a general factor.  You do need it.

Unknown

Peerless Installation

Hi- I also have a Peerless 04. I looked through the 04 manual and have attached a pdf with  some notes on the important steam page (page 6) which maybe of help to you.

 The boiler is a good boiler and I've been very happy with it.  The 04 size uses the same model burner from 125 to 175 so if you have the larger one you can "down fire" it a bit if necessary.

I might also mention "the books". There are several great books offered on this website which are extremely helpful if you are new to steam heating. The first is "We Got Steam Heat"

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

and the second is "The Lost Art of Steam Heating"

 http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/68/Lost-Art-Of-Steam-Heating

These books are written for the home owner,are easy, humorous reading and in a few evenings reading you'll know far more about steam heating. My copies have paid for themselves a 100 + times over.

- Rod

jpf321

confused again ...

According to Steamhead here: http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/128987/oil-now-gas-later .. the 1.333 pickup is already factored into the boiler specs .. and in reading the spec sheets on several boilers, I concur .. they are only looking for actual EDR and they factor in the pickup factor of 1.33. I think this means that if the boiler is rated for 100sf EDR in it's specs, it actually burns for 133sf.

Timco

manual

As I have done before, I would hand the installer the manual showing typical install diagrams and ask which diagram he feels best reflects his screen saver piping job. Totally wrong i must say, materials & design. No point in chasing banging and water issues until it is piped right with proper materials as per install manual. Nothing good to say about that install besides brand names...



Tim

Unknown

Match EDR to Net rating

Match the EDR to the NET I=B=R Rating.  Look at it this way-  The "NET" is what is left available for the radiators after the pickup factor (1.333) has been factored in.  (page 73-74 of "The Lost Art .....")

- Rod

PJB177

Boiler Sizing

Rod, Thanks for taking the time to notate the owners manual.  That was very helpful.

As far as my boiler sizing question, I think maybe I phrased my question wrong.  I guess what I am trying to figure out is this:  Is it possible that since I have a smaller number of linear feet of 2" mains that the extra 33% allowance on the net EDR rating is too much, meaning the boiler is actually slightly oversized?

Charlie from wmass

The new boiler is most likely over sized IF

That is if the correct survey was done. some radiators have different ratings yet look alike. The other issue is boilers only come in so many sizes today. many are simply the same boiler with different fire ratings. As stated above it may be possible to down fire if the boiler is grossly over sized.

PJB177

Downsizing Boiler

I know that the boiler comes with a few nozzles to downsize the firing rate and output if needed.  It was sized to the EDR of the radiators in the house, though, so I would hope the boiler is within the range needed to operate efficiently.