organizing assorted solar questions

Royboy

the short response to what I'm looking for is answers to my questions about solar systems

and also recognizing that in many cases there are not simple answers, only questions with a variety of opinions as to the answers. so I'm looking for, as I said: "some real focussed and evolving compiled knowledge"

and recognizing as the solar thermal field grows in this new era of interest in renewables, there are lots of hydronic pros out there with similar desires.

this site is a great help. I was just speculating about how to make it even more useful.

how can you help me? by weighing in on threads that you have some expertise.

thanks - Roy

Royboy

I've been watching solar threads ...

in particular here lately. I'm seeing both that there are more & more over time and that they often end up revisiting one or more of a set of primary questions about solar system design, installation and operation.

such as flat plates vs evacuated tubes, drainbacks & pressurized closed loops, heat exchangers, storage tanks, heat transfer fluids, pipe insulation, etc.

and then the responses to those questions end up scattered around in lots of discussions that often ramble around, topic wise, as one thought leads to another. in a way that's just the nature of the beast in a forum like this, and truth is that I find the search process here to work pretty well for trying to track down info on a question ...

just this week Dan's regular email reminded me of a feature here that I've browsed before, the "Systems FAQ" page.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/heating-help.cfm?pageid=32

on that page in the solar section I saw there are 3 archived threads (all from early this past summer): Drain-back systems; Solar rights: and Which is better, flat panels or evacuated tubes? excellent!

seeing those made me think: would it make any sense to identify some key "primary" solar thermal questions, start separate threads that are related to each of them, and then archive the threads - or better yet, link to them, so that they could stay current and live over time.

not to discourage new threads and questions, but to compile some base topic discussions that could save time on the search feature and lead to some real focussed and evolving compiled knowledge.

guess my "inner organizer" must be up and happening today. anybody else think this idea is worth pursuing?

finally, I'm reminded that on the professional front, this site is definitely one of the tools for which I am most thankful, not just at thanksgiving, but year round! thanks Dan, thanks all of you!

Roy

Sunrise Energy Services

Mark Custis

Orgainize

Roy:

Not sure that it is possible.

Being a solar thermal sponge I feel your pain.

What is it you are looking for?

Solar in the USA is a work in progress. Check EU and China sites too as they have more experiance.

The one thing I have learned here over the years is hot water does not care how it gets hot. It just does its job. My job is to use hot water however warmed any time I am able.

I have also reached the point in my life that I no longer need a screen name here. I am right at least 25% of the time. I only find this relaivant since learning to read, especially installation manuals.

How can I help you?

Mark

Mark Custis

Solar

is not a majic bullet. I was very excited when I saw my first vacume tube heat pipe here in Cleveland at the International Solar Show in 2007.

We stopped the tax advantages for solar when Ron was elected presidents, the EU countrys kept going. Most of the real numbers are coming from abroad.

Read the trade pubs and then follow the links. Read what Hot Rod and others type here and then follow the links. The best link I got from HR was one of his trade pub articles telling about retscreen.com. Google it.

Besides that solar is not a majic bullet, I know it will continue to grow in the US market and I for one want to be ready. I remember when radiant heating buffs and geothermal folks were thought to be crazy. I also used to subscribe to The MotherEarth News, when it was published down the street in Madison, Ohio.

I hope this helps

Chris Norton

Solar

Roy, there are as many different solar applications as there are desires to install them. Each app is unique in the desired outcome and effects. The Europeans are way ahead of us.

There are many variables that affect your decision. Geographic location, heat vs. DHW, pool heating, dump zones, the list goes on. As stated before there is no magic bullet.

The big EU manufacturers, Viessmann and Buderus have great solar systems and equally outstanding training programs for their installers.

My advice is to contact these two companies and find the name of a qualified, trained installer in the specific area and go from there. Or sign up and take the class.

Good luck

Mark Custis

Chris

Check out Caleffi and their Idronics series. A "Modern Hydronics" for solar.

hot_rod

so, so many variables

involved in solar. Yet the basic premise is as simple as putting a garden hose out on a sunny day.

In some ways it gets a little more complicated than hydronics to design around. Mainly due to the fact that solar energy is so variable. From location to location, time of year and even minute by minute solar radiation.

With fossil fueled appliances at least you can nail down an output number to hang your hat on.

Add to that the options for collectors, controls, storage, etc. It can be confusing.

The basic I like to share.... for solar heating loads, design the heating system emitters to carry the load at the lowest possible temperatures. With radiant floors, tighten up the tube spacing. With panel rads oversize the dimensions. same with hydronic coils.

Rarely would you attempt to design for 100% solar fraction on a heating load. Just too much summer time load shedding to contend with.

Go for the easy, non critical loads like DHW pre-heat. It's doable most everywhere.

Search for a solar load calc software you can get along with. No need to guesstimate the numbers with so much available to crunch the numbers for you.

The amount of product hitting the market place is mind boggling. Everyone wants a piece of the "golden goose" I read today GE wants in to the solar thermal market.

I buy and read everything solar I can get my hands on. The German "Planning and Installing Solar Thermal Systems" is about the most comprehensive and non biased book I have found for design concepts.

Beware of marketing spin, question authority Don't over promise on the solar system you propose to a customer, or design for yourself.

hr

Royboy

maybe I'm not being too clear here ...

I'm not new to the field - spent a year and a half in a solar installers training program in the late 70s and about 5 years doing solar work after that. over the past couple years have re-entered the field. just completing a job putting in 24 drainback water heating systems on a tribal low-income housing development.

so I'm not a complete newbie, but am still very much figuring out what are my preferred details and materials for various systems. trying to not reinvent any more wheels than need be or inflict too much of my learning curve on clients. and I presume others have similar desires.

I guess one thing that's behind my initial question is the dance of having considerable curiousity about how others are designing/installing - while striving not to hijack threads or redirect them with tangential questions.

and the thought that there are threads that are in themselves like FAQs and it would be nice to have a mechanism to access them & potentially keep them live & growing while doing so.

thanks - Roy

joel_19

HR

Where can i buy the book of which you speak ohh wise Sun God?

Mike Dunn_2

Here you go

Here is a link to buy this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Planning-Installing-Solar-Thermal-Systems/dp/1844071251

I actually own this book and find it has more information than I can digest right now. Be sure to have your Celsius to Farhenheit conversion calculator with you as the whole book is in celsius and metrics.

michael_34

I like Roy's idea...

I have been installing (and now designing) Solar thermal just about 3 years. Tree hugging and construction background. I'm like Hot Rod in the sense I go after anything I can get my hands on to further my knowledge. One of these items I like to devour is the info on the wall. There are people with extensive knowledge that visit the wall (such as Hot Rod Joseph Annon,Boaz soifer) of solar thermal. I still have a lot to learn with solar heating (I know! we all do!). It would be great to have a condense form (or whatever) to have these threads linked to. Solar is here to stay (finally), and if we want to be as good as the Europeans we have to supply the information easily and freely. That way people with the inclination to tinker, will play and find better modes to obtain energy from the sun (or where ever).
Anyway last point. There are some great companies here in the states that put out great products and have been doing it a long time, we just have to push them so they don't get complacent.
Thanks all for being on the wall!

Royboy

two other books

which I have found useful and which nicely complement Planning and Installing Solar Thermal Systems:

Tom Lane's "Solar Hot Water Systems: Lesson's Learned" (MUCH info - and could use an organizing editor):

http://www.ecs-solar.com/lessons_learned.htm

and Bob Ramlow's "Solar Water Heating: A Comprehensive Guide" which is less detailed than the other two but still is worthwhile:

http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Water-Heating-Comprehensive-Systems/dp/0865715610/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227973569&sr=1-1

Roy

Sunrise Energy Services

ps - I forgot to add the Caleffi manual to the list but it should be there. clear, succinct & free!

http://www.caleffi.us/caleffi/en_US/Site/Technical_library/Idraulica_magazine/index.sdo

Wayco Wayne_2

I like the idea

of organizing the info, however I also like the free association thought process in evidence on the Wall. My personal thought process is not organized, (although I wish it were) and asking or commenting on things solar as they occur makes sense too. WW

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scott markle_2

It would be great if someone wanted to edit/compile a record of the solar related information that has passed through this Forum.

The only problem that I see is that some of the best information (for me ) is visual. I like to "see" what people are doing and how they confront mechanical issues. I have noticed in searching the archives that attachments are not preserved indefinitely. Not sure if this is a storage issue or what but it does detract from the value of the archived threads.