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\"Smart\" VS Circulators, Mod-Cons & Delta-P Modulation

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Comments

  • Andrew Hagen_2
    Andrew Hagen_2 Member Posts: 236
    Electricity

    I think the biggest advantage to these circs is that they will compensate for those who use a circulator for each zone with oversized circs. If a 100w circ is used where a 25w circ would have sufficed, and a VS circ is used in its place that will slow to use 15w, 89% of the savings was from properly sizing the circ and 11% was from the VS circ.

    The 11% is not so insignificant that it should be left on the table, but 89% is obviously the bulk of the energy savings. Scale is very important when speaking in percentages. We are talking a few dollars a month on a single circ system. However, once we have widely available VS circs that financially make sense, as Mark H has informed me we will, I see no reason not to use them.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    Not a lot of choices below that 80W range

    and when you find them they are often bronze or stainless versions intended for DHW recirc. Two, sometimes 3 times the cost of the typical "on the shelf" cast iron 3 speed.

    It's not just the electricity the consume but how much work they do at that power consumption. That's the strong point of ECM circ technology. If it varies it's speed via delta T or P may or may not be needed in all applications. That's why I quizzed Mark about a no frills ECM pump. High efficiency at a bit higher cost, but not in the 8-900 range.

    I'd gladly pay twice what I do for a 15-58 Super Brute to get a circ that moves the same load at 1/2 the power consumption. For me that is an easy sell.

    Time to get past all the green hype and start offering the consumer more efficient components. Few will say no if you present it well.

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Chris P.
    Chris P. Member Posts: 3
    Hot Rod

    Is that a standard Alpha Pro, or do they need to be modified to run on 60Hz? I've been toying with the idea of getting one of the Euro versions to have something to play with while we wait for the official release, but 50Hz vs 60Hz gives me pause.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    Grundfos has some samples

    that include a 120- 230V matching transformer. Just plug it into a 120V outlet.

    It's a basic Euro voltage converter,should be easy to find.

    The 50 Hz is not an issue, the electronics built in handle the 60 Hz.

    They also run fine on a 240V 60Hz direct wire power supply. I have one of each configuration running in my shop.

    I've heard of other contractors buying them online from UK websites. As you can see by the installation manual in 26 languages.. this circ get's around :)

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    the european 220v alpha will work fine here, ....

    people have done it, the 50hz is no problem, since as an ecm pump, the incoming ac is rectified, and re-oscillated at a band new frequency anyway - they were just waiting for UL lsting here

    and i second your motion about a simple ecm pumps - just the energy savings and starting torque of the permanent magnet rotor is enough - lets get the darn things out the door already - gfos and wilo are a bunch of XXXX teasers
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
    Low watt

    I agree completely that these circulators are a great match for modern hydronic heating systems. I also agree that the price range you mention would be ideal. It is unfortunate how long it seems to take to bring European electronics over here.

    As you say, low-watt circs are available, but only at twice the price of a 15-58, and who has one on the shelf? VS circs are the direction to go, rather than simply properly sizing single-speed circs since the battle is the same either way.

    It all hinges on the price in my opinion.
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    From what I can understand about these ECM circulators, they are by their very nature variable speed devices. Much of the cost centers around an extremely sophisticated control system of rectification and delivering three direct current "pulses" in a perfectly timed sequence regardless of the speed at which its turning.

    They come from a land where heating engineers fully understand that delta-t is naturally variable in nearly nearly any real-world system. Yes, they consider delta-t in their designs, but what they really care about is delta-p. Why? Because in a TRVd system, delta-p is the only element that can benefit from being turned into a near constant! Delta-t will still be doing its own thing, but you're not wasting energy by moving water forcing the TRVs to close tighter and tighter in order to keep flow at the required level.

    To bring these devices to the North American market, they face multiple and expensive approvals in a market they know is very limited. That "UL" stamp that so many rightfully look for doesn't come for free...

    I believe one or both of the following will happen in a few years:

    1) A standard interface between ECM circulators and mod-cons will be developed.

    2) We'll see more mod-cons with built-in circulators--either that or as a dedicated "plug-and-play" accessory.

    Both will affect flow through the boiler itself.




  • Vinnie081064
    Vinnie081064 Member Posts: 1
    zone valve energy consumption

    Been on a quest as of late for low energy consuming reliable zone valves. Taco 571 just isn't cutting it anymore as their reliability is no where near what it used to be 30 years ago. Looking for professionals opinions as well as manufacturers. It seems even trying to do power comparisons, there are many different ways to present usage. Watts, amps, VA, and the math does not always seems to add up.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Please start a new thread

    with your question.  The new Zone Sentry uses very little power.
This discussion has been closed.