steam vs. forced air ?

Unknown

money is always the issue. it seems most people would rather payless upfront, spend more on utilities, and be less comfortable then the opposite. My key would be to find ways to make the system more efficient without replacing the boiler to make sure it'll be cheaper than the forced air install. I asked a friend of mine how much less that job might be if it were only for cooling. His response was," I've put in forced air in churches without any problems." He didn't get what I was talking about. He was more concerned about making a fast buck then the quality of the system he was putting in.

Unknown

steam vs. forced air ?

I spoke to a client over the phone about a 100 plus year old church that is being gutted. Their intention is to replace everything & make it new." what kind of heat are you putting in ?" I asked. They replied " forced air." " what kind of heat do you have now ?" I asked. "Steam" they said.
I went over the pros & cons of both. The only pro to forced air no doubt is the cost of putting it in. I went on to explain how wonderful and efficient their steam heat could be. If the church chooses forced air over steam I'll have to hang myself.
The pic below is another job

Boilerpro_5

Been to a very similiar place just recently....

Was talking to the rep. from a congregation that is going to build a new building. They were going to put in radiant floor from the beginning and I recommended ductless split systems for most of the cooling to get rid of most of the ductwork and give them much higher efficiency (very little power needed to circulate cooling air and reduced electrical demand charges). Also, heat recovery ventilators with CO2 sensors for ventilation. They just had to hire an engineer because the county wants drawings and the engineer told them that radiant floor is too expensive, it won't pay back and you need to have ductwork for ventilation.
They are now going to have who knows how many horsepower to run the system, running operating costs way up, will have to increase cooling equipment size in order to cool all that extra blower horsepower, and be uncomfortable.


AARRRRGGGG!!!!!

Boilerpro

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Steamhead (in transit)

Show them these URLs

and the attached pic:

http://oikos.com/esb/28/duct_losses.html

http://oikos.com/esb/44/forcedair.html

http://hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/93/931114.html

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=25079&mc=7

Why would anyone want scorched-air after learning these things?

P.S. not sure who to credit the pic to.

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Christian Egli_2

Churches are in the soul salvation business

Steam is the heavenly stuff for the after life. Meanwhile another place I'm thinking of doesn't exactly need radiant floors, maybe just a bit of ventilation. I'm not sure either Purgatory is supposed to be a cozy place but rather an odd mixture of hot and cold sweats. So there, your engineer is matching purpose to function in this project.

There is somewhere here the excellent story of Dan and his church with the conversion (not new build though) from steam to radiant floor and the disaster energy bills and the disaster out of control overheating.

KC, please don't hang yourself, let the others do. I think steam heat and churches go so well together for both usage patterns and radiant demands from high ceilinged buildings that anyone contemplating a conversion should first consider the effect on the congregation: they will all remember the blazing hot radiators. Nothing matches that effect and delivery efficiency.

I always look forward to being greeted on a frozen cold winter day by the generous radiators in the entrance way, more than the doughnuts, more than the handshakes.

Or...

Convert the members of the church.

Leaving the scary scenarios aside, propose to go hybrid. As desired installing the AC will involve air stuff, for practically no extra cost, you've also got a heat pump. Leave the light shoulder season heat to the forced air heat pump and keep the steam heat intact for the real business. Fixing a steam system in my book always comes at less cost than a rip out and repair. You have it, it's an asset to keep. Any way you look at it, putting scarce dollars in the cost of cutting up steel pipes and radiators is money totally wasted - you get no improvements from expensive demolitions. Propose to spend the saved demolition cost on a smart steam lift.

This does not affect the AC budget in any way. And now your church has two solutions to winter heat. Redundancy. No ill-conceived demolition costs people get upset about (think about it, try raising donations to demolish something; there's not much opportunity for legacy plaques there). Plus, you didn't loose the welcoming radiators and their fan base. Church members complain about things taken away from them... parking spaces, radiators, coat hangers, furniture... all the oddest things that don't seem important to matters of the soul. Go figure.

Unknown

I'm printing it all as I type !! Great stuff !

Unknown

church goers do hate change. In addition to balancing & adding vents & what-not, I would put in a Tekmar steam outdoor reset. I put one in before, & they are awesome ! Put in a honeywell visionpro to act as a high limit, because that thermostat has an early start programmed in,with the tekmar control you have one bad **** efficient steam heat system.

Boilerpro_5

This one is different...

They were willing to spend more money up front and the engineer is pushing them not too.....this is ignorance in its finest form!

Boilerpro

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Unknown

they are all making bird calls.....cheap cheap cheap