Oversized Steam Boiler

Unknown

As I told you earlier this afternoon on the phone regarding the other job you are involved in, I ran into a local RI contractor last Friday at the local supply house where he was picking up an Independence steam boiler. In casual conversation with him, I asked about what type of building this six section was going into. He indicated an apartment with only six radiators. I asked him if he did a load calculation and he answered that he sized this one the same way he normally sizes them....by the "looks like a" method!

After explaining the importance of sizing steam boilers correctly and presenting him with a fresh copy of the Burnham Heating Helper, I asked him if the job was far away. He indicated it was close by so I asked him to take a breather and to go back and resize the boiler by the existing radiation. He called me back and said that an IN-3 three section boiler was more than big enough. Yjay would have made the one that he had already paid for and was picking up better than 3 times the size it needed to be! Unfortunately there are an abundance of installers out there that really need training but never attend anyone's seminars including mine. A pretty sad state of affairs but I'll keep plugging hoping that everyone will be on the same page! keep the faith John....things will eventually get better.


Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

JohnNY

Oversized steamers - an epidemic?

A client has a cracked steam boiler and needs replacement. The existing boiler produces 1275 square feet of steam.
An “engineer” that works for a local supplier went to the home last year for another reason and declared a replacement boiler should produce 1,600 sq. ft. of steam.
Another plumber gave an estimate to replace the boiler with the same size that is existing.
I was the only person who did an EDR calculation and the system requires 750 sq. ft. of steam. No more.
I explained this to the co-op president but it seems my proposal is so out of line with the others, it can’t be right.
I’m 100% confident in my numbers.
I got an email this morning that another contractor is doing the job.
It’s my own fault for not doing a good job convincing the owners that I know what I’m talking about so I guess I just need to vent.
Thanks for listening and I welcome your comments.


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bigugh_4

Like selling door to door!

Selling your self is tough. I once was told that door to door was expected to bring in about one (1) sale in every four (4) tries. Over the years I noticed that this is very good selling. 25% of our tries become sales. Mabey this is a self fulfilling prophacy, but anyhow? I always sold what I had confidence in. Myself and the products that I enjoyed. So there are 75 people out there who have bought less than they paid for in my opinion. And 25 folks who got the best bargains and products that were available, installed professionally. Just walk away AND GRIN!

mike@BORO

over sized steamer

WOW makes you almost want to go back and do it over . are you sure you didnt miss anything? your talking almost 500 sq more dont make sense. proabably going with the "whats there method". NOW,heres what i would do, send them an e mail back or a letter telling the owners what they should expect from their contractor ie: all dimensions according to manf. specs , using two vertical risers , no copper headers, use your imagination,educate the customer and tell them make sure his contract spells every thing out and let him know that if their is ever an issue that involves the manf. the work better be done right! good luck maybe you will get the next boiler when this one rots out.

mike

JohnNY

Losing a sale because of my price, or my salesmanship, is one thing, I'm not a cheap contractor. I think I'm bothered most by the fact the client is going to buy a boiler that is something like 75%-100% larger than what is right for the building.



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JohnNY

Mike:

The original boiler had a tankless coil, I'm sure. The building now uses a free-standing water heater. I'm sure I didn't miss anything, plus I added 15%.

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Unknown

We had a similar problem last Wednesday

We're there on an estate , changing out a dry fired Weil Mclain with 600 sq. ft. of radiation , and replacing it with a Burnham with less than 300 . This is one of 6 or 7 homes on a huge tract of land in Syosset . Me and Kenny manage to maneuver it down the broken stairs and past the broken dog , and get it in place . Thats when the lady of the house DEMANDS we put in a boiler with the exact same output as the old one . On and on and on I tried to explain to her why the old one might have been oversized , why bigger isn't better , etc...... She wouldn't have any of it . So , while we waited for my supervisor , me and Kenny walked the house and counted rads and sizes . Oh and she followed with her own pad and pencil . Yep , the new one was sized right .

The best part ? This was a RENTAL ! This lady is moving out in a few weeks too .

thfurnitureguy_4

Did the engineer size the boiler to the heat loss of the building, rather than to the amount of radiation? The shack may be under radiated. I do agree that it will not work any better or heat any more if the boiler exceeds the radiators.

When I'm selling hi-end stuff it is always better to give too much information. Explane why the old one failed, why the bills were so high and that most companies do not know steam. Explane that they sell you the bigger boiler to make more money and that you heard some companies get a kick back from the fuel company to push bigger fuel sucking boilers. Tell some steam stories and list some landmarks that you saved. You need to branch away from the guy with the plumbers crack and become the "Steammeister". If they still are not biting look around the house and ask if the home was warm and even before. Ask what they loved about their system and what they hated. Ask if the pipes banged and did the radiators hiss. Explane the reasons for all the problems and tell why this new, properly sized system will help. Once they know you and like you start again. A final try is if they still think that bigger is better tell the story of the guy you helped out and what it cost him in fuel, comfort, and money, to have his new boiler replaced because it was over sized and didn't work. Its even better if that guy will let you use him as a reference. Sales is personal and the best salesmen know their customers beyond the sale. They touch base and stay available. I sell furniture not heating but the people are all the same. Better luck next time.

ttekushan

boiler size/system performance

Good Golly. I like to size a boiler to the EDR but a bit over the 1.33 I=B=R method. But Oh does it depend on the piping arrangements. But EGAD are the boilers discussed here oversized!! Do any of these installers in question live with steam heat and observe how these systems actually act?

As Yogi Berra once said, you can observe a lot just by watching.

This is how I learned about the trouble and operating costs of gross oversizing. And the disaster of gross undersizing.

JohnNY

I just found out...

...the old-school plumber who got the job told the co-op board that replacing the boiler with the same size is the way to go because it "couldn't hurt" to be too big anyway. Better too big than too small, right? Apparently, the notion of the "right size" didn't enter the conversation.
I've gotta tell you, I loose jobs all the time. That's business. But I lost this one because I was smarter than the rest of them. It really sticks in my craw.
Whatever my "craw" is...

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thfurnitureguy_4

Wise old salesman said you don't want all the deals but you do want all of the good deals. His poor judgement will continue his bad reputation. Your good advice will help build yours. Send a follow up letter thanking them for the interview and remind them your here if they have any problems. When they do you might get the re-do. Craw: A mud leg for humans... its flushed out with beer and time!

Gene_3

don't be surprised

when the phone rings, asking you to come out and see if you can right the others wrongs.........just remember

TO CHARGE THEM ACCORDINGLY

keith

sometimes

the customer only wants to hear what they want to hear.

Sounds like they made up there mind a long before you tried to educate them.

I walked into boiler room at a medium sized convelesant home a few weeks a go to due a survey for repairs.

New ownership some maintenace crew.

The facility mangager who has been there for 30 years was proud of his boiler room and the heating contractor he has used for the last 20 years.

The boiler room looked like it was installed and serviced by a complete hack. One boiler section failed because of thermal stress due to the piping configuration. As I am explaining this it dawns on me that he hasn't the foggiest notion of what I'm saying or even the slightest bit interest. Is there any wonder how his boiler room got in the shape it's in?

Do you think I got the project? Not a chance. Do I want to get involved with client that doesn't want to help themselves? No!! My experience tells me that a customer like this only knows how to deal with their maintenance issues one way. When the whole thing collapses they turn their disaster into my disaster. Thanks anyway, I'll go find a client with a clue!!

Keith

bigugh_4

SUCCCINCTLY PUT ! n/m

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