Right heater for my Garage?

mike1

While still looking around for all options, I came across this on the net
https://www.insulation4less.com/default.asp

Spoke to the guy who said this "reflective" material is what might work best for me in BOTH summer and winter becuase it keeps the heat in in the winter and reflects the heat away in the summer, this way, I won't need a vent in the ceiling either. What do you guys think?

mike1

Right heater for my Garage?

Hello all, I would appreciate any help/info on the following please. My 1-car Garage is made of Brick and the dimensions are L16xW10xH8 and it not insulated in anyway, because the Garage is already so small and I have to fight for every inch of space, I am trying to avoid sheet-rocking the walls for insulation puposes which would give me even less space than I already have. I use my Garage to hang out on weekends and during the winter on cold days below 40degrees, I can't seem to find a heater that's good enough.

I first bought a "space" heater, this did not work and burns electricity like crazy when turned up high, then I tried a "Mr.Buddy" heater which works with Propane, this did not heat up the Garage effectively so then I bought one of those "oil-filled radiator" type heater, did not work effectively and used way too much electricity. I then bought a Kerosene heater, did not provide enough heat. I then bought an expensive [$400] Garage Shop Heater from Mr.Heater, takes way too long to heat up the place, burns Propane quickly when turned up high and since this heats "objects" and not the air around you, it is not the right heater for my purpose.

I am fed-up of having wasted so much money on all of these heaters and would appreciate if you could tell me what are my best options to solve my problem without my having to insulate the Garage, I would prefer something that does not work on electricity but if you have one in mind that works with electric and could do the job then I will consider that too. Please keep in mind that since we are simply hanging around in the garage and not moving all that much, I need something that will heat the "air" or entire room. Looking forward to your replies everyone, thanks, regards, Mike.

[Deleted User]

Tough call....

But here are the numbers...

Wall lengths = 42 X 8 = 336 square feet. R value of bricks are around 2, so using A/RXDelta T, walls need 336/2*70 = 12,000 btus.

Assuming garage door area has an R value of 1, 80/1*70 = 5600 btu's.

Assuming that the ceiling is also uninsulated and has an Rvalue of 1, then 160/1*70 = 11,200

For infiltration, assuming 2 air changes per hour would total 3,200 btuH. So, add 'em up.

3,200 + 11,200 + 5,600 + 12,000 = 32,000 btuH OUTPUT.

A btu is a btu is a btu. Can't change that. Only thing you can change is the number of btu's you want to pump into this seive, and how much you're willing to pay for them.

If it were me, I'd find some way to conserve energy (and money) and look to a radiant style heater. Heating "bodies" is easier than heating air, and MUCH more comfy IMHO. But then again, it IS your money, and you are allowed to spend it however you want.

A word of caution. Beware of the silent killer (carbon monoxide). They have a tendency to hang out in these spaces too...

G'Luck!

ME

Dan_22

If you have forced hot water heat why not run a couple of lines out and hang a modine heater. I did this in a friends garage and he is very happy with it. Another perk is no open flame or CO2 issues.

hr

Heating an uninsulated space??

If you use Mark's calc that's 200 btu/ square foot load! About 10 times what an insulated space that size may require.

Doesn't matter what type of heater you chose, it's going to cost you plenty to heat that small space.

Even some sheets of foamboard on the ceiling would be a big help.

Sealing around overhead garge doors is the biggest challange with shops. Hard to pick an infiltration number for that leakage, it could be a lot higher than ME's number.

Depending on your fuel cost and efficiency of equipment, it could cost you a buck and hour, or more, to try and heat that space.

hot rod

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mike1

Hey guys, appreciate the quick responses,

@Dan:
the garage is detached from the house and located at the back of my property but the immediate problem is that the yard is concreted in "slabs", I was told that if I dig it up to place pipe lines underground, I can expect those slabs to break up due to their age and might have to replace them. Other problem is that I had run lines in the Basement via the hot water heater and this was not efficient so I had other heat put in there so if the hot water heat wasn't enough for the Basement then it definitely will not be enough for the Garage.

@Mark ;
1]The heating "Bodies" issue I am not sure of because I will need a heater that will cover the main area of the Garage where we are usually situated which is why I am thinking of heating the air so no matter "where" we are in there, it will be warm, let's say we were more at the back of the Garage and I were to place a Radiant heater at the front of the garage facing us, would this heater cover us all?

2] I want to be clear on one thing which you wrote, are you saying that I will need a heater with 32,000 BTU capacity for this situation?

Thanks guys.

jeff_51

definetly foam board the ceiling

1" celotex or better. Insulate the walls with pink and use 1/4" or 3/8" cdx. You will only loose 1/2 to 3/4 and I doubt you would notice. Gas fired Modine ceiling mounted garage heater (modine for one) or get a kerosene torpedo heater with a thermostat. They come as small as about 25,000 btu. There is going to be a pretty big heat curve but that is what I use in my garage. GET SOMETHING ON THAT CEILING. I have a small fan with bracket for mounting on wall or ceiling from the Depot which moves the heat off of the ceiling. Sounds like you have enough heaters already. Try doing the ceiling befor you do anything else

Bob W._3

If you don't have to keep the brick look, I would consider insulating the outside with foam and stuccoing it. Seems to me if you plan on hanging out there its gonna be cold no matter what kind of heat you use if it stays uninsulated. How about just some 1" or 1&1/2" extruded polystyrene or polyisocyanurate board (thermax) on the inner side walls, covered of course, and thicker insulation in the ceiling? If code will allow it, just side over the foam with thin plywood or OSB; it will save your car doors.

mike1

@hotrod:
sorry I missed your post, understood on your tips, thanks. p.s.The ceiling is sheet-rocked.

@Jeff, I will look into the modine heater, a few questions if you don't mind please:
1]Is this the unit you have?
http://www.abledistributors.com/pdf_pages/equipment/Modine/modine_hotdawg.pdf

2] What type of heat does this produce? Meaning, does it heat the air or objects e.t.c?

3] Does it use Propane? If so, how many hours do you get on a 20lb tank?

@Mark: This is the heater I have, isn't this a "Radiant" heater? If not, what's the difference between mine and a Radiant heater please?
http://www.mrheater.com/productdetail.asp?id=696&cid=166


http://www.mrheater.com/productdetail.asp?id=696&cid=166

[Deleted User]

That is correct...assuming

that you'll be hangin out in the garage wanting it to be 70 degrees F inside, when the temperature outside of 0 degrees F. If not, adjust accordingly.

For example, if you don't plan on spending any time out there when it goes down to 20 degrees F, that's a 50 degree differential compared to the calcs at a 70 degree differential, so 50/70 = .71, so you'd only need 71% of the 32,000 btu's, or around 22,720.

Now, if you could figure out a way to give up say 2" of interior space, and install some blue or pink board insulation (1" on each wall and the ceiling) your heating demand would be about 1/2 of what I calculated...

ME

[Deleted User]

Yup...

that IS a radiant heater, and in order for it to work well, the bodies must be in the "field of vision" of the hot surface.

I have one of those on the porch of my mountain retreat. Yesterday, I was sitting on the porch, with it on, and the OSA temp was 22 degrees F. I had to keep doing the "rotissary" move to keep from freezing my back side off, but it WAS comfy... It's like sitting in front of the Sun.

ME

ME

mike1

This word "Radiant" is confusing me here Mark, I was told by a Tech from Mr.Heater that this unit heats objects BUT it has to be mounted at an angle and not directly at people, he said the heat reflects from "off the floor", in other words, the heat has to hit the floor first THEN heat the objects around it.

From my research on other Radiant heaters, it suggests to me that they work the opposite of the one I have, in that they have to be aimed directly at the objects so an I to assume that different radiant heaters work in different ways? If so, then which one would work the best for my situation? Or do you have a link to one? Thanks.

jeff_51

the modine comes in either natural or LP

It is not what I am using, but have installed many. You can run them off of an LP tank just like a grill. You can get a hose and disconnect kit almost anyplace that sells grills( we use these alot when we hook up portable grills to house gas, They have a quick connect coupling similar to an air hose) You can of course run soft copper to the tank anywhere you want to put it but the quickconnect hose would prolly be easier. My heater is a portable torpedo. You can get them for LP or kerosene and get them at any homecenter or hardware, lumber yard, tractor center etc. You can then get a 120v plug in t-stat to give you better control. They look and sound kind of like a jet engine when lit. Work well, we use them on the job for temp heat all the time. I think the LP come as small as about 15,000btu. The Kerosene start about 45,000btu. The make I have is called a Ready heater. Torpedo heater is a generic name, cause of their look

Dan_22

I would be concerned of a buildup of combustion gases using a torpedo heater, especially if you tighten the place up as suggested.

jeff_51

hot dawg would be big enough and cheapest

(of course nothing is cheap) You have to vent this up through the roof. The pv is of course a powervented unit and can be vented either through the roof or out a wall. More money of course. The torpedo heaters can be pretty noisy. If you are using your garage as the local male crises center, you may not like the noise. I am usually woddworking and have saws and dust collectors running, so a little more noise won't make any diff to me.

jeff_51

if you tighten it up Dan has a point

I have no plastic up in the garage walls, only insulation and plywood. If I have any concerns, I just crack the garage door a little. With a t-stat, they usually don't run that long

Jason Best

Unit heater

I just did my uninsulated 2 car garage this fall. I went to northern tool's website and got a Mr. heater "big Maxx" unit heater that runs on propane. This heater works great, and is cheaper than the Modine "hot dawg" It is the same thing. They hang from the ceiling with as little as 1 inch of clearance, and are power vented, so they can be vented horizontally through the back wall with a thimble. They heat the air in the whole garage, not just objects. I had Amerigas come and set a 140 gallon tank behind the garage. The tank and install were free as long as I burn at least 70 gallons a year of propane. Yes, it consumes gas at a fairly rapid rate, but as often as I use it- it's worth it to me. My unit is the 75000 btu unit. Whoever said around a dollar an hour to fuel it is probably correct in cold weather, but it is very comfortable out there and the unit runs very quiet with no smell or danger.

mike1

what about this one guys, could any of these do the job?

http://www.mrheater.com/seriesdetail.asp?id=156&cid=148

Weezbo

Whews ..thats a no brainer.

lets see...insulate, insulate insulate...its 28 below today if i buy a 120000 btu heater i can basically heat a space 4 ' in front of the end outlet to about 150 degrees everything else will be drawing the heat off faster than the thing can produce it,in an hour the fuel lines will likely gel and the carbon will begin to interfere with the burn efficentcy...or i Could buy a turbo 250 helicopter engine crank it up with its own dedicated 500 gallon fuel source and call the fuel company in the morning...no one wins the battle to heat the great outdoors its just too expensive. nah...insulate the place .for the duckettes you already invested you could have insulated the garage so that the heat from the motor of the car would keep it warm after you parked it untill morning. AND had dollars left over to install a radiant floor with its own heating plant.

now that might not be Exactly what you wanted to hear buh ...really...you do. otherwise, the problem arises that, you are asking a question that basically is unanswerable. to be fair to you.

break your focus of heating for a momment and meditate as it were in the realm of keeping what ever heat you happen to have... try me out on this one..*~/:)

get 4 sheets of 2' foam 4X8 put one in the corner one on the ceiling one on the floor and one on the opposite wall of the corner, basically making an insulated corner open to the room. kick your shoes off,sit down on a chair with a 2'X2'piece of plywood beneath the legs, lean back against the insulation and just Be for about twenty mins....the heat you feel is some of the heat you have released to the environment..the rest "got away" and is currently heating my house in some rather remote way and i live thousands of miles from you

Trust me on this one.:)

mike1

I get the message on the insulation fellas, one key thing I forgot to mention that's keeping me from insulating is that during the "summer" months, guess which room is always the "coolest"? Yes, the Garage is always cool becuase it is not insulated and the Brick is always cool on the inside, if I were to insulate for warmth in the winter then I will have to get a cooling system for the summer, can't win here, can I?

Jason Best

yes

technically yes they would. those are radiant heat though, warming objects before the room. And you would still be screwing around with 20 lb. propane tanks. You have wasted enough money already. I would honestly spend the extra money up front and get a unit heater. Trust me, you will thank yourself. I used to use a kerosene torpedo, now I can't believe I waited so long to put in the unit heater. What a difference. Quit wasting your money on all of those marginally effective heaters. In fact, I would take all of those and sell them on EBAY. That would probably pay for the unit heater. You can get a 45000 BTU one for $375 from Northern Tool, and the gas company will probably set a tank for free. That just leaves the venting. I got all required venting parts at HDepot for less than $20. Let us know what you decide.

helpingothershelpthemselves_2

Check out Modine's Hot Dawg .
Recently hung a few of these and they are real nice units.

www.modine.com/hotdawg

mike1

Becuase of the "summer" situation regarding cooling, right now I am thinking that I will leave the garage as it is and try either the Modine or Big Maxx which seems to be powerful enough to heat this garage even in it's present state and I could call a gas company to install and replace a big tank whenever needed, at least this way I won't have to worry about replacing the small 20 lb tank that often. I only use the Garage on a Saturday for about 8 hours or so therefore a big tank should last a long time.

If I do decide to insulate then I will definitely have to get some kind of cooling during the summer, do any of you guys use any kind of cooling besides an AC for your area? Also, is there a cheap solution for BOTH cooling and heating if I were to insulate?

Jason_15

Big tank

I think you are making a wise choice. You are correct that a big tank will last a long time in your situation. When it gets low, they don't replace the whole tank, they just send a propane tank truck to your house to fill it again. there is a guage on top of the tank, so you can keep track of your usage and predict when you will need to refill it. My 2-car garage with 75000 BTU heater has gotten lots of running time already this year (cold Wisconsin)and I have only used up 1/4 of my initial propane fill so far. It cost me $140 to fill the whole tank, and that was when prices were at peak. It is cheaper now.

Weezbo

answer is Yup we use anykind of cooling in our area.

Insulation is some 'pay for it One Time, done deal, end of hassle, stuff though.

Insulation with a dash of ventilation in the lid.That chops out alot of heat in summer from baking your brain.

mike1

Well, the idea here is that I will not have the heat on for all 8 hours, I will keep turning it on/off when it starts getting cold as I don't want the garage to be "hot", only comfortably warm so this should give me additional mileage. 3 Issues I am looking at right now:

1] Which unit do I need between the 4 HD models?

2] Can I use a thermostat that will control the temp in the garage and shut the system on/off automatically?

3] Since my ceiling is only 8', I am wondering if this will meet the mounting requirement for the heater?

Jason_15

YES

You should be able to use the smallest Hot Dawg. This will also be the cheapest. Yes, you should use a thermostat. Any regular house thermostat will work. I happened to have an old Honeywell digital laying around, so that is what I used. It works great. Your 8 foot ceiling height is fine. Those units only need to be 18 inches off the ground to meet code. just install it an inch or two off the ceiling so you don't hit your head, and you won't lose any room in the garage. You will be amazed how quiet these are, and how well they heat. And mine isn't even a modine. The modine would probably be even better.

mike1

According to Mark's calculation that I would need a 32,000 BTU for my purpose and Hot Rods' advice that I may need more becuase of various unknown factors, I think I will have to go with the bigger Model as the cheapest model [HD30] is only 24,000btu, the next bigger one [HD45] IS 36,000 so just to be sure, I should get the HD45 and if you look at the prices, it's only a $20 difference between the 2 of them.

mike1

Just for the knowledge, if I should decide to insulate:
1] Seeing that the ceiling is sheet-rocked, would I have to add to or replace the sheet-rock with anything? I don't wish to have to break the ceiling.

2] My existing heater is supposed to heat up to a 2 1/2 car garage, will my existing Garage Shop Heater do the job efficently now with the insulated Garage?

Mt. Falls Mikey

My 2 cents...

I spend a lot of time in my uninsulated shop doing woodworking. I use a 35K BTU kero. Reddy Heater,does well, except for the $3.00 / gal K1!! I figure approx $1.00/hr to operate is close to the mark.

Bob W._3

If you already have a sheetrocked ceiling, just blow in insulation and patch the small holes. Easy to do. Do that first and then try the heaters you have already bought. Bet they will do the job.

mike1

Bob W. Don't know why your post did not show up here but here is a copy of it from the email notification

"If you already have a sheetrocked ceiling, just blow in insulation and patch the small holes. Easy to do. Do that first and then try the heaters you have already bought. Bet they will do the job."

My question here Bob or anyone else, why would insulating the ceiling alone help when the 3 sides of the brick walls are left uncovered please?

Bob W._3

It will always help, since there is significant heat loss through an uninsulated ceiling. The reason I suggested it is because you don't want to lose any space on the horizontal (length and width). Since you already have a drywalled ceiling, just insulate above it and try that first. Once you get the brick mass of your side walls heated up, the space will become fairly comfortable (although they will still lose heat at the same rate they always have). You may be satsified at that point. If not, you can always insulate the walls later.

mike1

This sounds similar to what a guy who does construction told me once. He said that since heat rises and that there was a chimney on my Grage roof, then all of the heat will escape so that is why he recommended that I either seal off the chimney or the roof, I opted to seal off the roof also becuase of appearance reasons.

Thing now is,

1] I don't understand what you mean by "blow in insulation and patch the small holes", I can't pull off the sheetrock because they are totally sealed at the edges [sides] so I will have no choice but to cut holes to do anything.

2]I don't know if this will be a problem but there are 4x10" Beams or rafters in this ceiling so there is 10" of empty space between the sheetrock and the actual roof, seeing that the Garage is 16' long, just about how much insulation will I need to put in there?

Bob W._3

Your local home center or lumberyard can answer these questions. Should be easy enough to cut small holes at either end of each joist space and fill with cellulose or blown fiberglass.

jeff_51

insulation will keep the garage cooler in summer

don't know why you thought it would keep it hotter. Insulation is just as important to keep it cool. Just go up in an uninsulated attic in the summer. It will be 140 degrees or better. You can also get a low temp stat for the garage to keep it around 40 or 50 degrees. You can even get them that will go as low as around 32 and up to 70. You have to look around for those, you may have to special order it, but you can get them with a wide range.

mike1

Hey Jeff, thanks for the info but I am confused with this as I had always thought that becuase the Brick is always cool during the summer that this what is keeping the Gragae cool and if I were to place any insulation over it then I will lose that coolness. Comparing how inside of an insulated house is always hot during the summer, this also led me to believe that it is the uninsulated brick that is keeping the Garage cool, are you saying that if I were to cover the bricks with insulation that it will still be as cool in the summer?

Weezbo

Ventilation is what is causing alot of the Heat *~/;)

quit fanning the doors in summer and you would notice a tremendous difference in indoor comfort.Ventilate the roof That also slows down the "Heat". constant circulation at low temp thru radiant evens it out throughout the building.

mike1

Ok, let me attack this insulation issue bit by bit because I am gtting more and more confused here. The 3 sides [2 side walls and the back wall is made of brick and is not insulated, if I have to insulate those 3 walls, which would be the easiest, cheapest best way to go that will be efficient and will not rob me of plenty space? I was thinking of simply sheetrocking the walls, if I have to create another wall on top of the existing wall to place fiberglass or other insulation materials "between" the new wall and the brick wall, this simply will not do as I would lose a lot space so what are all of my options here guys where insulating the brick walls are concerned? Thanks.

Weezbo

the deal..

blow loose fill into the celing.

that requires gable end vents so the insulators can get "In".

apply out door insulation ,keep the thermal mass.

this last suggesion is not going o be popular buh here goes,instead of siding the garage take the approach of leaving some bitchuthane on the exterior of the insulation for like ten years,that will drive the taxes down in your area and keep them low on the structure...*~/:)

the bitchuthane will add a water proof and weather proof barrier that will last a long time:)

Brian (Tankless)

Time for bluntness

Mike, you can't make omelettes without breaking eggs, OK, accept it!

This ain't rocket science. Sheetrock is VERY, VERY easy to cut and repair. Cut access hatches the width of your joists X two or three feet in each end of your garage ceiling, or just one in the centre. Get up there & blow in at least 6" of cellulose (treated & shredded newspaper) insulation, spreaded evenly over the whole area.

While you're up there, see if you have a ridge-vent, if not, think about installing one. Or a couple of turbine vents, or solar-powered, self-opening extractor fans.

Do you have gable-vents up there? If not, think about it.

Brick walls: Tap-con some 2" X 2" studs to the brick, slap in some 2" blue-board or whatever, finish with 1/2" sheetrock or plywood.....done. You'll be amazed at the small size heater you can use.

Instead of patching up the holes in the ceiling, install insulated drop-down hatches so the space up there (and your garage) can breathe in the summer.

The only way it will ever get done, is if you START somewhere.

Have you noticed how many of the answers to requests here for improving heating efficiency of homes, is to INSULATE, & insulate some more, then fix what you THINK is a problem with the "underized" heating plant. This definitely applies in your case, doesn't it?

Good luck, Mike.

Brian W. in steadily getting colder Swampland.

Edit: Wheezbo is right, insulate the OUTSIDE of the building, keep the thermall mass (flywheel) on the inside.

Not sure what "bitchcuthane" is though :O) Got pictures Wheez?